The Ultimate Sprite vs Hand Drawn Thread

This will be the only thread with this discussion. Turning any other threads towards it will result on closure of the thread and a warning.
Do not flame other people's opinions
Flaming is not disagreeing with them. That's what we want, just in a polite and non-agressive manner
This thread will remain stuck until it manages to die for a month

Wouldn't this be better off in the debate forum?

You are not my friend for making this thread. I'm so sick of seeing this argument. Put it in the debate forum, you bad mod you. If you don't want people talking about sprite vs. hand drawn, just make a rule that says "all sprite vs. hand drawn threads in this forum will be summarily deleted. If you want to debate about it, visit (this thread) in the debate forum." We'll thank you for it.

SPRITE COMICS SUCK ARGLE BARGLE HATE


I mean, yeah. Debates forum

No, here is best. Some people don't GO to the debates forum, yet they feel they HAVE to argue this topic. By putting this in the Cartoonists Lounge, it helps keep this crap out of the crit threads so those of us who'd rather not see it CAN ignore it!

Also, I'm a bit biased towards sprites. If I have to choose between 2 comics with exactly, perfectly equal writing & archive size & one is drawn, the other is sprite... The gamer in me is attracted to the pixels. But, as I said, for it to even be an issue requires: A) Limitation as to how many comics I read, B) The writing must be of equal funniness & C) The archive size must be equal. It's not unless all 3 of those conditions are met that I even care...

Anyone wants to know what I think later in the thread, like on page 50 or something, refer them to page one, 'cause I ain't comin' back in here to even read what you people say. I've had my fill of this tiopic, I'm just repeatin' what I've said a couple other times it came up.

Bowser out!

It does seem more logicial for this to be here in the Cartoonists Lounge. I mean, it IS about comics.

Actually, we're debating about wether this thread should be moved or not than the actual thread topic.....DELETED!

the absence of this rather...mundane and overly burnt to crisp issue would be for the best in my opinion. this thread and idea is merely capturing the the adolescent minds that are to be the future of webcomica and making them absolutely idiots.

kill this thread and chuck it into the bottomless pits of hell. please.

The problem with this thread, is that it brings down the cartoonist loungue sitting there sticky at the top... At least allow it to shuffle down the line so we don't have to stare at it ;)

Thing is, if this IS deleted or moved, then it's only gonna be a few days before some new guy comes in and starts the exact same topic. Again. At least if this is here, then they'll think a) "argh, it's already been debated to death, I'll leave it", or b) "I'll say what I think in this sticky despite noone reading it ever". Or perhaps c), they make a new topic anyway and we have free licence to destroy them utterly with wrath. Woohoo!

On the other hand, I'm not sure I wanna look at it at the top of the forum all the time either. -_- Murghgrrrstupidarguementgrrrgrrr.

well i dont have a problem, you can do equally amazing things with each medium (well, as long as you actually make your own sprites)

which isnt that hard if you put the effort into it

http://www.eyeshock.com/~thebrits/bin/sheet.jpg
see? :P

The problem with this thread, is that it brings down the cartoonist loungue sitting there sticky at the top... At least allow it to shuffle down the line so we don't have to stare at it ;)
I want one master thread that everyone will have their opinions in. If this somehow gets swarmed to the second page, it'll be dead.

You are not my friend for making this thread. I'm so sick of seeing this argument.

I made this so that it stays out of every other thread.

It's here in the cartoonist lounge because the argument always spawns here, and NOT in the debate forum.

Yeah, and how many new people with "look at my comic" do you think are actually gonna read the sticky? Maybe HALF... if we're lucky...

They'll get a good ol' "Wam Ban Thank you ma'am."

Warnings first, but then I'll be watching them

or we could just direct them to this thread instead of having to waste so much time.


"Regarding your "Art", go to page 3. Your writing, pages 4-7, and for your personal appearance, a surgeon"

This seems more like the Ultimate Having This Thread vs Not Having This Thread Thread.

Which is just as good.

This Thread Sucks Assfarts

even if we "Kill" this topic, it will just come back someday. New people join this forums all the time, after after the thread is gone, we won't have killed the subject for them. It's an eternal curse.

http://www.webcomic.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35186

I think that just rendered this thread pointless. -_-

I don't see any reason to choose between the two mediums. And it doesn't look like most are.

I really enjoy seeing some good hand drawn webcomics, but there is a lot of low-quality stuff out there in the paticular format. Stuff like penny arcade, and slackers, megatokyo... that's good stuff. But there are others that are trying to immitate those skillful styles, and they just aren't really good enough, artwise, to be much more than an irritation. if someone can do something that requirs less skill, but still looks polished, I like that too.

Sprites are odd in a way. easier than hand-drawn, but they also require a lot of immaginative thinking to work with, becuase the medium is so limited.
I'm critical, maybe overly so, of sprite comics that use the sprites from games. (I've already read about...5 + now... that use both nintendo & sega sprites in a totally ridiculous plotline, with none to minimal decent backrounds.) I'll grant that if someone needs a medium to express their humor, and they truly ARE funny, then that's cool I guess, just so long as you can give off a DECENT, polished visual that is easy to look at.

For my time though, I like quality, self-made sprites & backrounds to accompany that humor. It doesn't matter if your sprites are BASED on another, but they need to be modded a LOT more than just altering the color for them to be original. I've yet to see many of these, and I hope that if all goes well with my project, I may be one of the few to hold ownership over such a creation.

Given the time and resources, I'd try to create both genres of webcomic with equal quality.


EDIT: My aplogies for the extra sprite thread. Just trying to pump some info outta the forum goers without it being a debate. But since mods are mods, this thread will suffice. Again, sorry.

www.squidi.net It's not a sprite comic! It's pixle art!

where is squidi, anyways? once he replies, this thread can die.

for the record, i don't much care for sprites as a whole, but i'm not gonna let it stop me from enjoying a good comic.

bye bye!

Well, for the record, if this is goign down in history as the greatest sprite debate thread EVAR, then I reckon 95% of sprite comics that use game characters, modified, recoloured, or whatever, would benefit greatly by having some degree of originality in them. I don't see why I should spend time on reading a comic that looks no different to thousands of others that I could replicate myself in 10 minutes with photoshop and a sprite sheet. I don't mind people making them, just so long as I'm not expected to read it.

As for Squidi.net, Zspade, you're right, it isn't sprite, it's pixel art. Only spelt right. :D

After leaving TWC, I kept my numbers but they weren't growing very fast, so I joined buzzcomix. On Buzzcomix, there is the ability for people to post a small review of your comic. The only negative reviews (and they were really negative) were ones which compared AMD to something with stolen videogame sprites.

I can say that pixel art is deceptively difficult to do right. It isn't much like drawing and there are hundreds of little rules and techniques which can make the difference between good and bad. Take those 16x16 smilies. The difference between a smiling face, a frowning face, and an indifferent face is roughly two or three pixels max. Smilie faces are relatively simple and easy, but magnify that kind of responsibility for every pixel in your entire comic and you've got an attention to detail that hand drawn stuff just can't afford to do.

The problem most people have with these kind of comics is that the scenes are set up like colourforms. You grab a background and a couple characters in various poses. You don't draw every frame, and many people confuse the amount of effort that goes into something with their ability to appreciate it. I will admit that it can be particularly limiting, but in 300 or so comics, I have yet to reach that limit and doubt anyone else has either. Besides, when there is a limit, there is always someone out there who is going to push it.

The second problem is that pixel art is EXTREMELY easy to steal. In fact, there are several sites with stolen work, ready for download. Because of this, people who can't draw will frequently use these stolen sprites to make comics. One might ask what they think they can bring to the table if they have to mooch off someone else's work, but these comics are more often than not vanity projects. Look how much attention 8-Bit Theater gets. They want that.

So there you go. Pixel art looks easier than it is so it doesn't have much artistic respect except from those that do it.. People have problems with the composition of the art and consider it lazy. And the ease of stealing and use of MSPaint has lead to a thousand poorly done vanity projects. I think I've covered the bases.

Frankly, I consider the first two a bigger threat to AMD than that last one. AMD doesn't steal any pixel art and it doesn't take more than a glance to tell that it isn't Pink Megaman Recolor. The first two are prejudices that extend beyond that, even if they may have been first brewed by crappy sprite comics. Even if someone realizes that AMD has original pixel art, they may still have a hard time enjoying that style because they think it is lazy - which is certainly isn't.

Pixel Art isn't better than hand drawn, but neither is it worse. It is a unique way of expression that cannot be recreated using a pencil. It has connotations and colors that just can't be reproduced. It requires different skills and being great at one will not instantly grant you mastery at the other. It isn't to everybody's liking, but then no art style is. There isn't a need to compare pixel art to hand drawn because it is always a matter of opinion in stylistic choices.

Personally, all my pixel work is hand drawn. Comparing sprite comics to hand drawn comics is misleading because sprite comics, by definition, steal their art while hand drawn comics, by definition, are original. I think we can say that a poorly done self created comic will almost always be better than a poorly done stolen art comic, but I don't know that we can say for sure that a well done original art comic will almost always be better than a well done stolen art comic.

This seems more like the Ultimate Having This Thread vs Not Having This Thread Thread.

It's a metathread!

Go Squidi!

Comparing sprite comics to hand drawn comics is misleading because sprite comics, by definition, steal their art while hand drawn comics, by definition, are original.

And I want everyone to think back to their own first hand drawn strips and comics. Chances are you're a little like me, who once drew a single panel strip that was an obvious Far Side ripoff and whose first few comic books were all done using X-Men characters or characters who could have easily slipped into an issue of X-Force with no problem.

Or think about how many crits here have focused on how new artists borrow a little too much from Penny Arcade.

I agree with Squidi. It sucks to have something you put a lot of work into compared to something that required no effort at all.

Anyone can make a game-rip sprite comic.

Ethane

All it takes is a real artist to know that Squidi's work isn't lazy. Anybody who compares his work to "sprite comics" are saying such things out of either ignorance or spite. Yes, working with pixels if very difficult. There isn’t laziness here by any stretch of the imagination, quite the contrary actually.
:boxing:

Heh, yeah, I remember reading a post about a spriter that was complaining about having to make the arm of a sprite move 'cos what he wanted wasn't in the sprite sheet. XD *smack*
Squidi's stuff rocks, as does Danno's. :D I dig it good! X)

My main problem with sprite comics is the humor related to them. My comic, is a cut and paste comic, and a small amount of the art is not mine. In fact there are lots of good cut and paste comics. However I know that my humor is original unless there are comics that I am unaware of that are like mine. Sprite comics have all the same humor to them that tends to be created by potty-mouthed 14 year olds.

Added an 'other' vote, sorry for you people who already voted.

I love how these sprite arguments always entise someone to summon squidi and within a few hours he is here to make comments on it.

I agree with Squidi. It sucks to have something you put a lot of work into compared to something that required no effort at all.

Anyone can make a game-rip sprite comic.

Ethane
Anyone can make a hand-drawn comic.

Anyone can make a hand-drawn comic.

#1 reply from people who are upset that thier game sprite-rip comics aren't given overwhelming accolades:

"I wouldn't be making a comic this way if I knew how to draw."

Ethane

This isn't about my comic.

Clicked the wrong button, ended up here... This will really be my last post in this thread.

"I wouldn't be making a comic this way if I knew how to draw."

That excuse means 2 things, neither of which is what it says. A-They have no pride in thier work. B-They're really lazy, I mean c'mon! They can't even think up an excuse! You know Brian Clevenger, Dave Anez, Dave Schader & Mario Panighetti wouldn't say that! They've got pride in thier sprite ripped work & they've put a lot of effort into it!

I chose rip-sprites because I LIKE rip sprites. There were a couple of other styles I was contemplating, but I ultimately decided that I WANT to use ripped sprites 'cause I like the look. That and I used to be an add-on for a game hints & tips site... Hence the name: "GameCheetz". I eventually dropped the hints & tips.

There are good ones. And there are bad ones. A sprite rip comic should require the author to put just as much work into it as a drawn author. If you wanna be any good, that is...

Schmoo is correct, anyone can make a drawn comic. If the person gives a crap about it, they'll practice thier art. If they suck at drawing, they'll get better. I've made some pretty good sketches of video game characters... It's not that hard to do.

And about what Chikin said... I can repose most characters arms fairly easily... If you pay attention to the sprite's shading detail & use it's own colors, all you gotta do is remove the arm, rotate it, & stick it back on... If a sprite artist can't do that, then they're not giving each sprite the proper attention it needs on each paste.

I chose rip-sprites because I LIKE rip sprites.

Me too, and beleive it or not, I can actually draw.

There are good ones. And there are bad ones. A sprite rip comic should require the author to put just as much work into it as a drawn author. If you wanna be any good, that is...
Took the words right out of my mouth.

There are badly drawn hand drawn comics and there are sprite comics made with no effort at all.

The main point is the writing. Neither comic will be good if the writing is terrible. On the other hand, both comics could be interesting if the writing accompanying the comic is top notch.

Take my comic for instance. I draw fairly well (still think there is lots of room for improvement though.)
but, I am more embarrassed about a particular comic if the writing is weak. Rather than the art not being at par.

I think both have a chance. But, if it looks as if there is little to no effort put in, chances of it being successful is low to none.

I'd say Sprite Comics. Only because for some reason I like the Pixel Art style (Sprite rip comics are pixel art comics, except you are using someone els's work) over Drawn Style.

I'd say Sprite Comics. Only because for some reason I like the Pixel Art style (Sprite rip comics are pixel art comics, except you are using someone els's work) over Drawn Style.
I beg to differ. Sprite comics are called sprite comics because they use sprites from games. Game sprites.

Pixel art comics are called pixel art comics because it is drawn by art but using pixels. Pixel-Art.

Infact, the name pixel art was chosen to separate the two genres.

..yeah.

there are many more aspects of illustrated (hand drawn) art.

On one hand, I'd like to see this arguement die. On the other hand, I can't resist saying something about it. Grr.

This came up in a thread I started a while back and it got me thinking that yes, a lot of sprite comics are just there and really have no point to them, and yes, there are those who do good sprite comics because they put a lot of time, effort, and attention to detail into every aspect of their comic. And I also realized that yes, a lot of hand drawn comics are just there and really have no point to them, and yes there are those who do good hand drawn comics because they put a lot of time, effort, and attention to detail into every aspect of their comic.

After coming to these conclusions, I decided that it is up to the writer to choose the art form he/she prefers, be it hand drawn, pixel art, sprites, or whatever. I, personally, wanted to have Megaman and Protoman rescued from a Sigma/Great Will of the Macrocosm fusion by six Super Sentai, thus I chose sprites. Others who wish to do different things will choose how they want to present it.

Some people want to do something creative, so they make a comic and pour their heart and soul into it. Some people have a creative idea and want to make money off of it, so they make a comic and pour their time and effort into it. Some people, like me, have weird ideas floating around in their heads and want to see it with their own eyes, so they make a comic and work til they're satisfied with what they see and if no one else likes it, who cares? I like what I do, so deal with it. I use sprites because I like how they look and they fit what I want to do. Deal with it. I won't force my way of doing things down anyone's throat. If you think I'm dead wrong and a moron for not doing a hand drawn comic because that's what you do, that's your opinion. This is mine.

Oh yeah, and I voted other, because I really have have no preference as to what I like to see. I happen to enjoy comics that fall into both categories. So :p to you. :D

Some people want to do something creative, so they make a comic and pour their heart and soul into it.

The problem with ripped sprite comics is that soul belongs to someone else.

Here's how I see it:

Hand drawn comic generally take longer to produce. Therefore, more people who do Hand drawn comic tend to do spell check and make decent scripts for there work, simply bcause more work is involved in the artwork. They don't want the time on the artwork wasted by a bad script

Sprite comics can be made in three or four minutes, with no exageration. Because of the low time of cretaion, the user generally takes a less time on the script, and the comic suffers.

And, for an example of the Sprite comic, see MaRiNe. The guy has some nice jokes and comics, but his work suffers because he makes so many in a day, that he misses the grammar and spelling mistakes.

Those three lines were meant for comics in general, not spesifically sprite comics. In fact the want or need to do something truely creative to the point of pouring one's heart and soul into it makes it impossible for someone to use sprites simply because they'd be taking a short cut and ripping off someone else. The second, for profit, also negates the use of sprites because you are ripping off someone's work. The third one is really the only one that sprites would fit under, if anyone's being honest about their motivation because it's nothing more than self-satisfaction. Now hand drawn and pixel art could fit under all three categories. But yes, sprites are a rather cheap way to go. I don't claim to be an artist and I don't claim that my comics are art, because I use sprites. I can claim to be a writer, but not an artist and I take pride in what I do. My comics look like what was floating around my head for the most part. I'm satisfied. If I was doing a comic more seriously, for art or profit, I'd be using hand drawn or pixel art.

I've never made a comic in less than 20 minutes and usually take close to an hour, mostly because of writing and dialogue. I know that's still a piddly amount of time spent on a comic, but as I said, it's mostly just self-satisfaction. I also have my English major friend spell and grammar check most of my comics. Not that it really matters.

Drawn comics suck. Bunch of rip offs and hacks. Nothing original or innovative. Nothing but lame repetitive storylines and cut and paste.

Sprite comics are obviously where it's at.

Seriously, why the fuck did this argument get started again? Was having it daily to randomgokou666 with 2 comics under his belt that both break the forth wall not enough or something?

Hm. I belive I understand now. Pixel art as a seperatre genre... even though the charecters are obviously sprites-like, they are original....

Ok. You won't hear anymore stupid comments from me on this subject, now that a difference between original and ripped sprites has been established...

why the ---- did this argument get started again

Well, forums DO tend to get a semi-regular increase in user base... perhaps the topic should merely be avoided by those who have already had their say and are irritated with it to boot. Just a suggestion.

Drawn comics suck. Bunch of rip offs and hacks. Nothing original or innovative. Nothing but lame repetitive storylines and cut and paste.

Sprite comics are obviously where it's at
true.

on the other hand, today I dug up a cd that had roms of sonic games on it. I played for about 2 hours. I can see why people would make sprite comics, but i can't see why they cant make them funny.

I blame cartoons about cards that can be fought with, sodas with reduced caffiene, and a cookie cutter world of cute little unicorns you can raise with points that can be used in the intrest of profit for the producer - but neccesary to keep your pet alive.

Ready sheep? Baaaaaaaaaaaaah

I suppose I'll add a couple of cents to this thread.

First off I think some people need a definition of orginality grounded with reason as opposed to the simple definition of being "the first" to come up with an idea. Being the first to come up an idea has a lot more to do with luck, rather than skill.

In a world were everyone drew circles, if one person drew a square is he doing anything orginal? What if other people can draw squares better than the first one? What about the poor soul who drew the first circle? With the advant of the square then all of a sudden people everywhere starts drawing circles and squares. Orginality shouldn't be defined like this when it comes to anything artistic.

Do you know who would be the truely orginal person would be in a world of only circles and squares? The one who drew the circle inside the square.

Orginality as I see it, is the layering of concepts and ideas untill it becomes something truely unquie. Something dare I say, orginal?

On a whole, I respect hand drawn comics more than sprite based ones. Even to an extent pixel based ones as well. People who try hand drawing one a whole show more dedication to the art. Especially if they can do it on a regular basis. Which is why I voted for hand drawn.

However, I give as much respect to a well done sprite comic as I would to a well done hand drawn one. People need to have a good sense of asthetics to work with a sprite/pixel comic. All to often do I see use of mismatched sprites with mismatched backgrounds. As well though hand drawn comics can be immpressive, they do fall into the other spectrum as well.

Though really I'm only talking about appearances. Plot or the joke are an intregral part to the whole comic process as well.

In the end lets face it, few people actually take comic creation *seriously* it's just a hobby for most people. People who take their own comics seriously, given enough time and dedication will turn out great. I'd like to think that if a person knows how much effort they put into their own comic, that they can see the effort that other's place into it. Certainly they'd be able to see past the perks and downfalls of the respective genre and be able to simply appreachate what a comic's author is trying to say and do.

I would like request another sticky thread;
3D comics vs the world
kthx :cheers:

I've got to be honest, I really don't care about this argument all this much. I do, however, think it's better for an artist to at least ATTEMPT at making their art. I really don't want to insult anybody on this board, but I have one question for sprite comic artists; How do you feel proud of what you've done?

I don't ask this to be insulting, rather, if I made a sprite comic I wouldn't feel as if I "created" anything. It wouldn't even begin to fill the creative drive I have and I would not have the ability to be proud of it. That's just me though. I have no problem reading a sprite comic here and there, but the bottom-line is that somebody else created the artwork.

I've been reading sprite comics years before I started mine. I've always known of the bias against sprite comics, and I'm convinced that it simply isn't fair. The principle argument is that a majority of sprite comics are crap. This may be true, but quite frankly, a majority of hand-drawns are crap as well. So the whole concept of the sprite comic bias just doesn't hold water for me.

So I've basically trained myself to ignore the bias and critics of sprite comics. I don't care what anyone says, there are some sprite comics out there that are great, and I find it just shameful that some people won't even give them a chance simply because of their medium. It's like racism of the comic world. Anyway, I like to think that mine is a sprite comic of at least a bit of higher quality. I do my best of fight the bias, and every new person who decides that sprite comics aren't that bad is a victory. You have to take your victories small - one at a time.

I've got ANOTHER guy stealing my pixel art that I've got to deal with. This is like the fifth time. I'll just make the judgement call right here and now and say that sprite comics (comics that STEAL other people's art) are stupid and the "creators" are stupid and there is just this big world of stupid waiting to rain down stupid on all the stupid heads of the stupid people involved. Stupid stupid stupid. I hate you and hope you die.

There. It's settled.

I've got ANOTHER guy stealing my pixel art that I've got to deal with. This is like the fifth time. I'll just make the judgement call right here and now and say that sprite comics (comics that STEAL other people's art) are stupid and the "creators" are stupid and there is just this big world of stupid waiting to rain down stupid on all the stupid heads of the stupid people involved. Stupid stupid stupid. I hate you and hope you die.

There. It's settled.

;)...Go have a beer or something you psycho.

What I meant before was that what is a game sprite but Pixel Art that was used in a game, and the author being the game artist who made the sprites/Pixel Art. If I was to create totaly original characters and hand Pixel Art draw them and put them in a comic, and use them in a game, would my comic with them be a "Game Sprite Comic" and get less respect?

If I was to create totaly original characters and hand Pixel Art draw them and put them in a comic, and use them in a game, would my comic with them be a "Game Sprite Comic" and get less respect?
You only get less respect if you STEAL art. It doesn't matter if it is from a game or not.

I've got ANOTHER guy stealing my pixel art that I've got to deal with. This is like the fifth time. I'll just make the judgement call right here and now and say that sprite comics (comics that STEAL other people's art) are stupid and the "creators" are stupid and there is just this big world of stupid waiting to rain down stupid on all the stupid heads of the stupid people involved. Stupid stupid stupid. I hate you and hope you die.

There. It's settled.

Does that mean we can go home now?

it's not just the dishonest stealing but, the laziness or lack of effort of creativity.

But what if it's honest stealing? I use game sprites and I acknowlege that. I got them off a website with ripped sprite sheets or copied a base sprite and adjusted it accordingly (different methods for different comic series). I stole them and I'm honest about it. Just kidding. That really doesn't excuse my actions at all. But I'm not really pushing for visitors and I'm definately not asking for any money for this, so I don't worry too much.

But seriously, from what I'm seeing it IS just a matter of stealing. If it wasn't stolen, then it was made by the author of the comic. That means that they put effort and creativity into it and weren't lazy. But I guess you could say that if they (we) weren't lazy then they (we) wouldn't be stealing. But if they (we) didn't steal the sprites, there would be no ripped sprite comics and this wouldn't be an issue. Therefore it really is just a matter of stealing. That's all there is to it. If the art was all non-stolen pixel art, no one could honestly complain about it because it'd be like any other comic.

I've been thinking lately about my comic, partly provoked to by this thread, and I've been contemplating stopping my current one alltogether and starting afresh with a drawn comic.

Let's put this as simply as possible; sprite comic authors are thieves. There really is no defence for that. If you can't draw, get an artist, maybe even draw it yourself anyway, comics don't need outstanding art to be good.

If the art was all non-stolen pixel art, no one could honestly complain about it because it'd be like any other comic.
If the art was all non-stolen pixel art, then the artist would definitely be putting more than ten minutes effort into each strip, and with such investment of one's labor the artist would be unlikely to make it nearly as bad as the average sprite comic.

Yes, stealing is distasteful, but it's just the bitter icing on a thoroughly rotten cake. The bottom line reason the average sprite comic is hated is because it's an unreadable piece of crap. Not because it's got Megaman in it, though that's often the first clue of what type of "humor" it will contain. No matter what type of visual it's presented in, "Hi! Wlecome to mynew comic!" "Its the frist comic so it sucks!" is overdone and not funny.

What I don't understand is people who come in and say "I make a sprite comic and I know people hate them but thats wrong you're all wrong you big piles of wrong".

Bloody well PROVE it then! Everything is neutral until proven otherwise, and neutral is as good as crap when it comes to webcomics. If I picked a random sprite comic and it was the first comic I had ever seen I think I could judge it as crap without reading 450 bazillion of the same.

*sits back and waits*

Oh and stealing is bad. Don't try it at home kids, stick to vandalism.

If the art was all non-stolen pixel art, then the artist would definitely be putting more than ten minutes effort into each strip, and with such investment of one's labor the artist would be unlikely to make it nearly as bad as the average sprite comic.

Yes, stealing is distasteful, but it's just the bitter icing on a thoroughly rotten cake. The bottom line reason the average sprite comic is hated is because it's an unreadable piece of crap. Not because it's got Megaman in it, though that's often the first clue of what type of "humor" it will contain. No matter what type of visual it's presented in, "Hi! Wlecome to mynew comic!" "Its the frist comic so it sucks!" is overdone and not funny.
Good now Squidi and Kid Radd have put in their 2 cents worth. I havent read AMD but Kid Radd is verry good. I respect them both for doing what they do. So listen to these guys. Now I'm done

Good now Squidi and Kid Radd have put in their 2 cents worth. I havent read AMD but Kid Radd is verry good. I respect them both for doing what they do. So listen to these guys. Now I'm done
I hear AMD is quite good... :)

I hear AMD is quite good... :)
You heard right. But be careful around the author, he's a bit kooky... :p

Okay... Uhm.. A lot of people have given very good constructive and detailed, logical reasons on why they voted on what they voted. I have a lot of respect for that. I voted other, though. No one's side. LoL. I'm going to go ahead and put a few honest opinions for myelf in this(and yeah, I'll be a little detailed because these little "___ COMICS ARE IN AND ___ COMIC ARE NOT" are annoying as all get out).

I go for a hand-drawn/sprite mix:

Why do I say that? It's plain and simple. I'm going work my ass off to do everything from scratch. From sprites to backgrounds to character designs. I don't think of myself as a good artist, or even fair. I'm very dedicated to the stuff I do. I put major effort and time into whatever I'm doing to improve myself.

Pixelart's become very demeaning lately. Like on DeviantART, people are just placing down oekakis/doodles or regular MS Paint sketches into the categories and claim it's pixel art when they haven't really bothered to take the time to study each pixel, each color, or whatever. A pixel can change a lot. =\ Going off subject and back onto it: The comic I'm planning on doing will be done on MS Paint and maybe Paintshop Pro, yet, I'm going to be drawing everything from the ground up. Not going to repeat myself on what, so, yeah.

What annoys me as all get out are people that are constantly not putting effort into their works, whether it's a storyline or the art. A lot of people thinks it's cool because they've placed down a bunch sprites (video game sprites, which is MAINSTREAM FOR ATTENTION) onto a background with meaningless dialogue (like, in no category at all) just to think they're cool and better than everyone else. It's like, what the hell, man. Can't you take a moment to think on how much time and efforts that's been put into the sprites? I mean, damn. That's another thing that kills pixel art. Especially cheap sprite edits. Well, hopefully you get my drift in that one.

I'm just.. Really, really peeved about sprite comics. I guess that because of me putting all my time and effort into working on MS Paint via pixels, sprite comics are the evils in pixelart. Well, my avatar's an example on what I do. Bleh. I'll post something in this forum later with something else. Hopefully someone will understand my view on this entire issue. LoL. I didn't even touch the hand drawn area, either. Okay, I'll go ahead and shut up before I blind you all too much.

I generally dislike all sprite comics.

No matter how much you can try to debate me on it, a majority of them suck. I used to be encouraging of new sprite comic "artists". But the truth is that when someone starts a sprite comic and it starts off sucky, they never improve. And pretty much all sprite comic "artists" start off bad. They read the major sprite comics and automatically assume that they can do that also. So then they:

- Go to any kind of sprite archive
- Steal the work
- Recolour a Megaman or Sonic sprite
- Make that character themself
- Make the main character dumb
- Create a layout for their crappy Geocities/Angelfire website
- Start making sucky jokes
(I know not all follow this pattern so don't show me comics that don't, because I know you were going to)

And then comes the funny part. They wonder why they're not famous yet. And then comes the custom sprites, they alter a Rock, Bass or/and Blues, then say, "Do not steal my sprites". Hahaha. Check this out: Breeding grounds for shit (http://forums.bobandgeorge.com/forum.php?forumid=5). There may be a few decent sprite comics out there, but that doesn't change the fact that most of the sprite comics are shit.

And don't automatically assume that I'm baised towards hand drawn comics also. They have the potential to suck just as much as the sprite comics. I wont even get started on the fake Japanese comics.

That is my two cents on this subject.

Actually, you linked the wrong site there... That's for Bob&George fancomics, which are very under-advertised & not quite as bad... The real problem site is Fireball20xl. Without them, most of the bad ones would probably not be.

And 2 of the Bob&George subcomics I do enjoy... But not the fancomics.

But I still see a lot of good sprite comics, you just gotta know where to look.

Actually, you linked the wrong site there... Oh it's the right site.

All of the comics that site pertains too keep to themselves here (http://www.bobandgeorge.com/Fancomics/index.html) without ever advertising elsewhere. This (http://www.fireball20xl.com/comics.html), on the other hand, is what most of the other bad ones try to emulate. And when you try to emulate crap...

LoL. I know someone that used to be with Fireball20xl that's actually on this forum. And needless to say, he's.. Well.. See for yourself.

http://bonustime.thegraphicforce.com.

Well, that forum is SUPPOSED to be for the people on that mini-subsite that keep to themselves...

Hey, that's acutally not that bad...I mean, I laughed at it, especially the DBZ one, and I normally don't laugh at comics anymore. Esspicially when I was expecting ****...

Oh how this reminds me of the "Modern Art" vs. "Minimalist Art" debate I had today in Art History. Modern artists were all like "hey we're better because we put time and effort into our flawless oil paintings and poetic perspective" and the Minimalists were all like "Hey man, it takes alot of talent to draw this square in the middle of this canvas" and so the debate rages until this very day.

My point is that there are a ton of art debates, and none of them get solved and both sides have their fans because people are individuals and individuals are defined by different tastes.

It doesn't matter how much time it took to make a piece of art (and essentially, that's what comics are), or whether or not you have perfect background, perspective or anything like that. What matters is what you are trying to say with your art and that you're trying to entertain people in the process.

This is why I am only partial to Megatokyo. Lots of time spent on art... 0 time spent on meaning, plot and themes. I think people should focus on what they want to say to the world, because in all honesty, the world is listening. Especially on the internet.


ps- it's funny because Infinite's sig was wrong about my info. People should learn that linux has the strange strange standards.

Blame Danasoft.

But what if it's honest stealing?...

lol. now there's a contradiction in terms.

...my two cents: there's great respect in my mind, for artwork/comics done in pixelated form, i.e. diesel sweeties, comet 7, modest destiny, but not so for the many many megaman, mario, video game originated comics. why? i look at how much effort is involved, and can clearly distinguish between the two: one as having some real sense of originality, and the other as literally copying and pasting.

as an art student and overall, a real sucker for art of all kinds, i have some serious issues concerning the methods which go by producing the sprite comics that are out there right now. there's no confusion or misunderstanding in my mind that what many of your sprite comic authors are doing, is a rather unoriginal, if not distasteful work of art.

if you want pixelated work, do it by your own means. not copying. pasting, and peforming slight pixel dab adjustments of something that is already there. what's so hard to swallow, other than the fact that you are basically stealing? and simply put - it's wrong. if you think that what you're doing is right, you might as well, based on the same ludicrous principles in which you are following, agree that it's right for me to steal and use squidi's pixel work.

right? sticking to your convoluted mentality, using modest destiny, diesel sweeties, or comet 7's pixeleated works of art and basically rehashing it to your liking is okay?? i think not.

i usually don't go about bashing sprite comics since it's just not in my nature to do so. some of you have some great story concepts, but to apply it to something that is absolutely dishonest in my opinion. i just don't get it fellas.

The nature of the comic's visual appearance doesn't really matter that much to me. If it's truly entertaining, I read it. If it's not, I don't. Granted, comics that have good material often look good, but the two shouldn't be equated.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Why is it that I can fall out of the loop for so long and come back to find the exact same discussions going nowhere?
Drawn versus sprite: I'll say it very clearly. I like drawn. I like the look of it more. I appreciate the delicate beauty of pen and ink on paper. A sprite comic, original or not, and regardless of effort, does not appeal to me. Two frames in a row with slight variations of the same picture is a little monotonous for my taste. That's my stance.

To address another point, I do have a thesaurus, I looked up sprite, and no where in the list of synonyms is the term "stolen image". This is not meant to be a pie-in-the-face to anyone whose comic may or may not be popular. Obviously a good comic is one with mass appeal and stay power. But I do find this whole terminology crusade to be one that is securely within the tight little bubble of the Webcomic.Net Forums. Away from this place, no one really cares. In fact, this is the only place where such a controversy actually exists at all.
I am in awe that the terminology correction department still seems to be battling this one, and for one comic that's already a hit with fans. Do you actually think the casual fans really care what you call it?
I don't get what the big deal is. It's a comic. A good comic. Unfortunately, it's marred by this silly controversy that is inane and pointless. I would seriously consider if maybe drawing attention back to this "controversy" of terminology might be a major catalist for the negativity it receives in the first place.

I prefer hand-drawn over both sprite and pixel-art. Not to equate pixel-art with sprites, but I really don't enjoy that digital look. Part of the reason I don't alter my sketches digitally.

As far as stylistic preferences go, all styles have a place if you use them correctly. I honestly don't think AMD would be half as good if it were hand drawn, even by someone with exceptional art skills. The pixel designs give it a feeling that just can't be replicated and it allows me to update every day when each comic only takes an hour or two instead of eight hours each.

Everyone is going to have a preference, but it is like saying I prefer CSI to Friends. Different strokes for different folks.

I think it all boils down to one thing: everyone is using these comics as an outlet for their creativity. Some people are more talented than others. It's a fact of life. If someone depends on sprites to tell a story they have in mind, so be it. Whether you LIKE that story or not is up to you and your personal preferences, like Squidi said.

Now, do I respect hand-drawn more than sprited comics? Yes. I don't consider myself an artist AT ALL. Nor do I consider my strips to be art. But if I had drawn them by hand, that, IMO, takes a considerable amount of effort as compared to spriting. But I also view both sprited and drawn comics by their writing. Some people's talents shine there.

There's more than enough room on the net for both forms of comics to be out there. This isn't a one OR the other situation. So can't we just go by the "live and let live" mentality? There's enough negativity out there to bring us down. Why continue that?

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater.png

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater2.png

I'm probably gonna get banned for this.

Damn... Now my next storyline won't seem so original...

I don't think you'll get banned for those.

"I don't consider myself an artist AT ALL. Nor do I consider my strips to be art."

To butcher a well known phrase: "Art is in the eye of the beholder." I consider well done code to be a work of art, for example. That definition is all in your perspective.

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater3.png

If you want, I have a font called "Atari Raster" & another called "Atari Vector"... I reccomend the raster font 'cause the vector one is so thin it's hard to see. It stays thin no matter how big you make it.

I appreciate it, but it's just a one time joke for me.

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater4.png

Hee hee, I really should cut it out now.

That last one was pretty good. I like the last line, it really needs a drum sound affect.

*sigh* I do believe I can sum this up...

Hand-drawn gets more credit for more effort, but many of them still stuck.

Sprites are said to be cheap and instantly sucky.

Anyone who goes by either of those probably also thinks George Bush is a saint.


Any good comic, (sprite or drawn) will take TIME TO DO. Anyone can come up with some art style, or copy some Megaman sheet, and slap something together in under 2 minutes.

Anyone that actually takes pride in their work takes time to make it look perty. Take my avatar for example. I could've just slapped it together, and tosses a sunburst in, but I took the time to make the figure throw off a shadow.

Anyone can come up with some art style,

"Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass."

I've been drawing for a long, long time. And even though I've gone down the Japanese-style route, I worked a long time before finally settling on my own style. Didn't take days, didn't take months, it took years.

Ask anyone who draws if they can forge a new style instantly, they'll look at you like you just fell off the turnip-wagon.

I never specified a time.


But, can you really deny that there's oh so many people out there that trace Gabe and Tycho, change what they're wearing, and then copy the jokes, then say it's all them that made it?


I personally believe, if you're gonna bother making a comic, you better be damn willing to put a ton of effort into it.

I never specified a time.

Ahem: "...Anyone can come up with some art style, or copy some Megaman sheet,"

You lumped two completely different things together as if they were similar. Sorry, no technicalities granted here.


But, can you really deny that there's oh so many people out there that trace Gabe and Tycho, change what they're wearing, and then copy the jokes, then say it's all them that made it?

What makes you think I would? Hell, I'm just as tired of PA ripoffs as much as anyone else is. For the love of Sega!


I personally believe, if you're gonna bother making a comic, you better be damn willing to put a ton of effort into it.

I couldn't disagree more. There's nothing wrong with keeping things simple. In fact, there's several webcomics out there that I read regularly that are the epitome of simple.

I think I put more effort into one of my pages than on your average Megatokyo page. (Inking, toning, etc.) Does my extra effort make my comic better? Obviously it doesn't, because my traffic says different. Also, I'm not being carted around the globe to be a guest at conventions. White Ninja is much more simple than my comic, yet it's incredibly popular because, well, it's amusing in its simplicity.

I have nothing against someone wanting to take a completely different approach to making comics that I do, either. However, when you have over sixty different Mega Man sprite comics already on the web and they KEEP ON COMING, something is wrong. Same goes with Sonic, and Mario, and Final Fantasy. Why do these four fuel 90% of sprite comics? Even though it was a joke, I'm pretty sure I'm the first person who thought to use 2600 sprites as a basis for a comic.

Oh for...

Ethane, I have a simple instruction for you to follow.

Pull head out of ass.


Go and head over the the BnG forums, and look at some of the stuff people do, then let's watch what you say.

or, I could sum it up. They have connections to so many hosts, such as drunk-duck, keenspace, etc. and when someone slaps a copy on, they show the evidence and get it taken right off of the web.


And i should point out that it's only MM and Sonic that get copied so much. Mario copies usually get hazed out, and FF sprites bite so much that people eventually give up.


And on my earlier, please note, "WILLING" i never said you had to. I never said you had to outwrite squaresoft or konami, and make some gigantic story. I said that you can't just sit down, and copy/paste, or draw a PA copy, you should actually be willing to do something to make your comic unique.


Thank you Cleveland, and GOODNIGHT!

Oh for...

Ethane, I have a simple instruction for you to follow.

Pull head out of ass.


...

Go and head over the the BnG forums, and look at some of the stuff people do, then let's watch what you say.

That's alright. I'm quite comfortable here at TWC.

or, I could sum it up. They have connections to so many hosts, such as drunk-duck, keenspace, etc. and when someone slaps a copy on, they show the evidence and get it taken right off of the web.

What the HELL are you rambling about? You make no sense! Who gets "pulled off the web"? Do they get pulled off by Dr Wiley's minions? Do tell!


And i should point out that it's only MM and Sonic that get copied so much. Mario copies usually get hazed out, and FF sprites bite so much that people eventually give up.

I want to know what you're drinking.

And on my earlier, please note, "WILLING" i never said you had to. I never said you had to outwrite squaresoft or konami,

Where did I mention Konami?

and make some gigantic story. I said that you can't just sit down, and copy/paste, or draw a PA copy, you should actually be willing to do something to make your comic unique.

Thank you Cleveland, and GOODNIGHT!

If you're drunk due to Hallowe'en, hey, that's cool. Otherwise you just came off as a complete rambling ass.

And you are an ego-obsessed bigot.

And you are an ego-obsessed bigot.

... (that, folks, is the best reply he could come up with.)

(and that folks is an even primer example, which took him quite a few minutes to do.)

See, if I wanted to make a joke, I would go into yo momma' jokes, but we all hate those.

I prefer to be much more and direct to the point.

Here's a very good example of an excellent sprite comic, that *gasp* defies the stereotype? *GASP* Doesn't suck? *GASP* Is better than quite a few drawn ones?

It's title? Planeswalker? And guess what? It takes Johan about an hour on each comic. (now) True, the early ones were less than impressive, but read them.

http://wotn.2ya.com/


Ethane, you are merely saying, "Sprites are for lazy people that are being copiers."


And following that, you basically insult a couple hundred people who take time every day to go into their respective programs, and do something your tiny mind probably has not come up with. SCRATCH, AND EDIT.


Seriously, look at the BnG forums, and let's see if your opinion changes.

See, if I wanted to make a joke, I would go into yo momma' jokes, but we all hate those.

I prefer to be much more and direct to the point.


Be my guest.


Here's a very good example of an excellent sprite comic, that *gasp* defies the stereotype? *GASP* Doesn't suck? *GASP* Is better than quite a few drawn ones?


yadda yadda yadda ...


It's title? Planeswalker? And guess what? It takes Johan about an hour on each comic. (now) True, the early ones were less than impressive, but read them.


No. I won't. You know why? There's already a comic on the web called "Planeswalker". How do I know? I made a fanart for it. "Planeswalker" as I know it has been around for over a year. Hardly original.


http://wotn.2ya.com/
Ethane, you are merely saying, "Sprites are for lazy people that are being copiers."

I never said that. (scroll back in this thread to see my posts.)

The only thing I asked about is why they seem to always draw from Final Fantasy, Mega Man, Mario or Sonic. That's it. You went on this tirade, and I'm just laughing along.

There are 2 categories to split them into. The effortless crap & the good ones. If it's effortless crap, then they choose:

8-Bit Theatre Wannabe for Final Fantasy;

Bob & George Wannabe, or the availability & versatility of the Megaman sprites (Ironically, Sprites Inc. is down for a while now...) for the MegaMan ones;

Where have you seen Mario? I've seen him in a grand total of 3 of the crap comics;

That's My Sonic Wannabe, & the availabilty of sprites for Sonic. (That's My Sonic isn't even good by itself, let alone any comic that copies it...)

If, on the other hand, it's one of the good ones, then I can't really say why people choose the sprites they choose. In my case, I chose who I wanted the comic to be about. It was an add-on to a hints & tips site I had made... I eventually dropped that, but kept the comic 'cause I liked makin' it.

The reason unknown characters are rarely used is 'cause the reader is more likely to stick with it if they already know the main character.

Why don't they include Pacman & other such "old" characters? I'm sure I'll find out next wednesday, not the coming one. As for right now, I don't know.

It's title? Planeswalker? And guess what? It takes Johan about an hour on each comic. (now) True, the early ones were less than impressive, but read them.

No. I won't. You know why? There's already a comic on the web called "Planeswalker". How do I know? I made a fanart for it. "Planeswalker" as I know it has been around for over a year. Hardly original.

http://wotn.2ya.com/
Ethane, you are merely saying, "Sprites are for lazy people that are being copiers."

I never said that. (scroll back in this thread to see my posts.)



I'll say it. The use of sprites to make a comic is a sign of laziness. The first time it's been used, it was funny. That URL I'm quoting was the 100,009th time I've seen a comic strip made with sprites. Trust me on this, comic strips made with sprites aren't even funny anymore.

And I know what ethan is talking about, because I'm the one who making an hand-drawed comic entitled Magic: the Gathering Planeswalker. It's at my web site at http://foxfire.twu.net , and I am posting Ethane's fanart on the blog. Not Once do I feel the need to use Sprites of any video game to tell a joke, especially video games that have been used over and over and over until I end up cursing so much that the Drill Instructors that soon-to-be-Marine Ethan Forsythe is being trained by will find their ears bleeding if they ever dared to listen to someone who Section Eighted in Junior High School.

Give me a comic that has artwork that required someone breaking out a pencil and a pad of paper, and I'll give you a web comic artist who actually has done something.

Warning: Ranting and whatever coming up!

I also can't stand people that make sprite comics think that it's cool to act all "Japanese-ish", ditto with hand drawn stuff. Bleh. Hell, I'm Asian and I don't even act like I am. Maybe it's because I'm adopted or something? I don't know. Could it be because I'm not full of myself and I don't think of myself as cool? That could be very well it. I know on how to write hangul and I know a few terms in Korean. Uhh. Yeah. Some of this has nothing to deal with the topic, but it does have to deal with the fact that a number of people that create "anime"-ish or Japanese/Korean-based sprite comics are pretty damned pathetic (and I mean, attitude-wise).

Guy: OMG!!!! IT'S PIKACHU!!! SUGGGOIII!!! WAI WAI WAI!!!
Girl: Shut up, f*ggot.
Guy: BUT, LIKE, IT'S POKEMON!!!! AAIIYYYAAA!!!
Girl: :: SHANK! :: Pathetic 'otaku'.

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater5.png

Um, when did you start your planeswalker comic dude?

Because, Johan's been working on his for 5 years now or something.


And I believe I speak for SO many spriters out there.

Using premade sprites is a sign of laziness. Most people out there go through and make their own. Those people aren't lazy in the least.


Just for the record, just because you draw something doesn't instantly mean that you're suddenly so much better than so many other people.

And I believe I speak for SO many spriters out there.

Then they need to fire you, because you're making them look ridiculous.


Using premade sprites is a sign of laziness. Most people out there go through and make their own. Those people aren't lazy in the least.


In the Cartoonist's Lounge, we've already come to the consensus that stuff like Kidd Radd and A Modest Destiny are a in a completely different category than typical sprite comics.

You'd have known that if you actually read through this entire thread, much less the Cartoonist's Lounge.


Just for the record, just because you draw something doesn't instantly mean that you're suddenly so much better than so many other people.

Well, I already knew that but thanks for reminding me anyway.

Using ripped sprites aint so lazy if you rip 'em yourself & are willing to alter them at a whim & use special effects & such to convey action & perhaps animate once in a while & do other such things like that. Although, none of those are good for EVERY situation. Animating something long & boring you can stick into 1 frame & pass would be stupid, for example. But for lots of action, animation is usually best.

There are this many kinds of sprites

rips

recolors

frankensteins

edits

scratches


Kid radd and modest destiny are scratches. Planeswalker, (the five year old one) is heavily edits and/or frankensteins.

See what I mean?

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater6.png

There are this many kinds of sprites
rips
recolors
frankensteins
edits
scratches
The fundamental flaw in that particular classification is that you've made "scratches" a subcategory of "sprite" when it is the other way around. In the pixel art communities I've been known to frequent, there is pixel art and there is modified works. Plageurism isn't a classification because it's not art. Modifying the works of others (with permission) is still looked down upon because it requires so little effort and most of the attractive aspects of it is inherited from the original work - so the original author deserves the credit.

Creating pixel art and (rips, recolors, frankensteins, and edits) are two VERY different things.

Props to Ethane for using the word "cephalopod".

I need to intoduce you to Jadeal, and possibly Invictus and Oakes while I'm at it.

Pixel-art is pictures. Scratch sprites act the same way as ripped, frankensteined, and editted sprites in that they're in a sheet that you copy from.

Props to Ethane for using the word "cephalopod".

It was inspired by me returning from Seafood City with two jumbo squid today. One of them has already been mesquite-grilled and eaten. Despite thier grill-friendly nature, however, I do find cephalopods to be incredibly fascinating creatures, especially the rare deep-sea variety.

Did you catch that special on the Discovery channel where they showed that given current evolutionary trends, cephalopods will conquer the earth in 200 million years?

And they'll take away our bandwidth!

*hides in corner*

Pixel-art is pictures. Scratch sprites act the same way as ripped, frankensteined, and editted sprites in that they're in a sheet that you copy from.

No, no, and... no.

"Sprite" is a video game hardware term. "A Modest Destiny" was never released for a video game system, so it's simply not a sprite comic. Sure, some of his character frames get re-used, but look at a lot of webcomics (and a few print comics). They re-use frames as well. Does this mean PvP is a sprite comic?

Actually, all "sprite" denotes is computer created/generated 2d graphic.

Or a bad soft drink depending on where you are in society.

Actually, all "sprite" denotes is computer created/generated 2d graphic.

No, a sprite is simply a hardware-controlled bitmap that not only has its own unique palette but it can be placed on top of another sprite OR a background tile with thier own unique palettes - with a selected colour on the sprite that is transparent (otherwise all sprites would be rectangular blocks).

I did some game programming years ago on the PC and and the Turbografx-16. Nothing major, but it did make me appreciate hardware handling details like sprites.

You do know that you esentially just restated what I said, right?

No, I didn't. Computers don't generate them, people do. The only thing computers handle is the transparent bit.

What he's basically saying, is that sprites may have that transparency, implied or otherwise, while pixel-art doesn't. This makes more sense to me... The concept of pizel art being those images that look fairly realistic, yet pixelated & done in a paint program with no outside input... Like the closeups in Police Quest. And still intro screens... And still endings... A FULL image on it's own, with both a background & a foreground, created as one piece of art. THAT makes sense to distinguish from game sprites, 'cause that actually LOOKS different. When Squidi gave his definition for it, I just thought of it as his way of snicking his nose 12 feet in the air & ignored it.

EDIT: I know I gave 3 game examples there, but most art of that style appears in 0 games. But my world is games... so... Google Search game me this example: http://www.naarvoren.nl/artikel/pixel_art.html

When Squidi gave his definition for it, I just thought of it as his way of snicking his nose 12 feet in the air & ignored it.
I said that pixel art didn't have to be created for just sprites and that it could be used to create images that never set foot into a game. I believe I even quoted www.eboy.com at one point.

The thing is, pixel art is the process of drawing art at the pixel level. This includes modifying MegaMan, even just recoloring him. However, pixel'n it may be, art it is not. It is the pixel equiv of tracing. It requires little skill and can rarely, if ever, exceed the boundaries set by the original work. There's very little respect in edits, and if it is an edit created from plageurized work, you'll likely offend the community so much (which has respect for each other's work and doesn't do that kind of stuff), they'll exile you and throw things at your head.

EDIT: I know I gave 3 game examples there, but most art of that style appears in 0 games. But my world is games... so... Google Search game me this example: http://www.naarvoren.nl/artikel/pixel_art.html
Just awesome. I dare anyone to say that something like that is on the same level as putting megaman's head on Mario's body.

I totally agree with Squidi. Pixel art is as much art as hand drawn stuff.

Damn graffiti's down.


Well...here's the next best thing I can do...

What's your views on this? (http://www.angelfire.com/mech/shinhakubi/pilot_captian_hunter.png)

Do you count it as cheap, or as pixel art?

Did you catch that special on the Discovery channel where they showed that given current evolutionary trends, cephalopods will conquer the earth in 200 million years?
I'll bet there's already a hentai game about that, coming soon to a Something Awful review near you.

(Runs back into hiding)

Dear GOD. I came to TWC thinking that the people here would, for the most part, be beyond this. Hell, I saw this thread and thought that it would mostly be newbies like me ranting at each other whilst you big, important, well-known comic people sit and laugh at our stupid antics. Instead I see the well-known guys going at each other, and can only assume other newbies are too scared to post. Wow.

Let's look at this from a perspective I've seen mentioned a couple of times, but not given too much thought. The average reader of web-comics does NOT know the difference between pixel-art and sprites. Thus, they cannot always tell the difference between the two, and will, like it or not, lump the two into one catagory. That's why the debate is the "Hand-Drawn Vs Sprites" as opposed to "Hand Drawn Vs Pixel Art Vs Sprites".

The difference only really counts when intelligent people get together and argue it out, which unfortunately rules out the majority of the human population. Many of you big comic people can tell the difference because it takes a good chunk of intelligence to make a good comic. But in the end, a lot of the readers, the ones who are the deciding factor as to deciding a popularity contest such as this, won't have that. But you all already knew that.

Now, the reason I pointed that obvious fact out is so I can make the next point without getting yelled at for putting PA and Sprites together: Comparing Hand Drawn to Sprites will never work. Its the same as comparing apples and oranges, fencing and kendo, or football and soccer. This will go on forever. People have already decided their preferences, and likely will never change them. You're more likely to get a mountain to move be screaming at it.

You big guys are supposed to be the role models for little newbies like me. Maybe if you all would let this debate fall to us, it would eventually end up being considered a newbie-type activity, like spamming or one word posts. And then when we get some maturity, we'll drop the debate and it will become a rare, once-in-a-blue-moon style event that dies out quickly.

'Course, that won't happen. But a new guy can dream, can't he? :(

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater7.png

Well, Creepy, the discussion is basically about whether or not drawn is inherintley(sp?) better than sprite. Pixel Art was mentioned so that people who feel they should be seperate for making thier own sprites, can say they're seperate & jump onto the drawn side. Personally, I think the whole argument is really crap. Drawn is no better than sprite, & Pixel Art is too poorly defined here to be used.

EDIT: And the reason this thread exists is because some people keep bringing this up elsewhere & others are tired of seeing it. So now it's here, in this thread, & nowhere else.

Amen to that Bowser.

I already knew that, Bowser, but thank you for reminding me anyway. I was just kind of fustrated at seeing a large, well formed community forum with the same arguement I've seen in dozens of smaller ones. Though at least here the arguements use proper english, and will (hopefully) stay contained in this one thread.


And thanks for not bashing my dumb self. :)

When they made this thread, they made it a rule that this topic can't be brought up in the others, so if someone does try to start it up elsewhere, they get banned for, probably a day. So yeah, I'm sure it'll stay in here.

Well, I first want to say because of the incessant discussion that a pixel art comic and sprite can be the same. I consider mine that and I'm sure various others use this same technique (and, I do create everything now and I also do refer to my comic as sprite even though that it contrasts with the others). If you really want me to elucidate on that further I can then.

So, I see this is another sprite and drawn thing? This current situation that everyone seems to want to express is not based anything on fact. There is no way you can prove one better over the other. It all is determined by opinoin. So why argue? Some like one and others like the other style. It simply is based on which particular one appeals to you.

Now, I actually accept both but I do have certain qualifications I use for both. I can easily dislike a sprite comics and ones that are drawn. I base my opinion on these by presentation. If it does not convey a good story (or single comics), decent art, and good writing I will probably not read it. And this applies to both then.

I think that's what the average reader probably thinks too.

Final word: it's impossible to determine whether sprite comics are better than hand-drawn ones because it's an OPINION. And not all opinions are the SAME. Quid pro quo, topic over.

What's your views on this? Do you count it as cheap, or as pixel art?
Yes, it's cheap. Any artist will tell you that compositition and anatomy are the most difficult things to do well. All that is inherited from the original pixel art. It's like drawing a mustache on a super model's face. The foundation and a good part of the finished product were there long before someone came along and colored over it.

The average reader of web-comics does NOT know the difference between pixel-art and sprites.
That is something that will only be remedied by making a clear distinction between the two. When I started, there was this big debate over just the term "pixel art" - and I mean a BIG debate. The people on here had only ever heard of sprite comics, but now I see all sorts of people in the comics scene - even people that I've never directly influenced - talking about pixel art and sprite comics. It's a worthwhile discussion. Frankly, the only people who lose out are plageurists and modifiers who think they deserve more credit than they do.

Yes, but you should note something. It is SHADED. Something you have not learned to do. It shows depth, which is much easier to do when drawing.

You're saying that lemon pie is cheap because you didn't make the lemons.

Here's a comparison between the final sprite, and what it came from.
Here (http://home.graffiti.net/canadianmetroid/Comparison.PNG)

Yes, but you should note something. It is SHADED. Something you have not learned to do. It shows depth, which is much easier to do when drawing.


That is the most desperate, ridiculous rebuttal I think I've ever heard.

You're accusing him of not knowing how to do one of the most rudimentary things in a graphics application (raise or lower a colour value).

Talk about grasping for straws.

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater8.png

The average reader of web-comics does NOT know the difference between pixel-art and sprites. Thus, they cannot always tell the difference between the twoFunnily enough, that very point has been echoed over and over and over, Creepy. Even more interesting is that the debate only exists where AMD is. On another comic directory or forum where that particular comic is not around, no one cares. There's no one telling you that you have to use a particular term in reference to Comic A.
To throw another aspect at what you're saying, though, I think that most people are capable of making the distinction, but only as long as they're familiar with video games. If you step away from TWC into Average Reader-Land, the majority of the people out there don't care about the distinction at all. It ceases to be an issue. I've spent a lot of time on other comic forums, and not once was the term "pixel art" even uttered.
This whole thing started because one comic didn't like being lumped in with sprite comics, I objected to it because I thought it was really arrogant to enforce a new (or even uncommon) term for a single comic, especially since said comic is not on my regular reading list. I still don't think that readers should be expected to make and understand the distinction, and I also think it puts unfair pressure on other authors of similar original-character based comics to make the same distinction. I mean, is this something that every reader needs to be briefed on before they can fully enjoy one comic?
I'm a little disappointed now to come back to this place and seeing the same argument and the same things being said about an issue that is obviously unresolved, because people, being individuals, either don't make the distinction or don't feel that they need to do so. I don't make the distinction and I won't, because I think it's a silly issue over how to label a comic, and it doesn't matter anyway. I think it the wrong way to approach distinction. Enforcing a the term "pixel art" as a deliberate alternative to "sprite comic" ensures that the controversy will never die, because the argument, by design, keeps the reference to sprite comics fresh rather than leaving it behind.

The term "pixel art" has been morphed through usage to be defined by what it allegedly is not: a sprite comic. This I find totally asinine. If the average sprite comic (those using game graphics) didn't exist, then the alternative term wouldn't need to muscled around like it is.
I don't think it's important to worry about "A Modest Destiny: Not A Sprite Comic". It should be more like, "A Modest Destiny: Fine Work of Entertaining Art". The fact that the comic seems to be using one term to escape another is tragic, because I think it undermines what the comic is actually meant to do: entertain people.

The fact that the comic seems to be using one term to escape another is tragic

Not tragic. Silly. Sprites are "pixel art" anyways so there is no fault in any spriter having a go with the term.

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater8.png

Haha. Squarer pixels.


As for sprites vs. hand-drawn, sprites use an additive color system since they're on a PC. This, and the nigh-infinite range of PC resolutions allows for a theoretically higher level of sharpness and detail which makes it the superior medium for anyone that is capable of seeing it to its potential. Which ought to be no one.

There also ought to be no difference in limits of any CG vs. sprites unless you impose arbitrary limits on the former or latter(ie: must be 16-colors , 64x64 etc) which is stupid, as anything can be made inferior to nearly anything else if arbitrarily limited.

Not tragic. Silly. Sprites are "pixel art" anyways so there is no fault in any spriter having a go with the term.Well, I think the author is certainly allowed to call his comic whatever he wants. The reason why I used the word "tragic" is because AMD is marred by this debate. Wherever it goes, the argument follows. I think the comic deserves better than that. There are some comics, such as Kidd Radd, that have defeated the sprite curse by simply not bringing it up.
It's really an eye-of-the-beholder issue, and it doesn't make the comic any better or worse no matter what you call it. If Sean thinks that his comic would have been less successful without this terminology crusade, I think he's really undermining his own talent.

Yes, but you should note something. It is SHADED. Something you have not learned to do. It shows depth, which is much easier to do when drawing.

Here's a comparison between the final sprite, and what it came from.
Here (http://home.graffiti.net/canadianmetroid/Comparison.PNG)

You're kidding right? First of all, most of the shading on the edit is IDENTICAL to the original shading on Bass. That's right, he plageurized the shading.

Second, I never said edits weren't pixel art. They are. They just doesn't deserve the credit and admiration that many editers think they deserve. Most of the quality comes from the original, stolen work.

Third, what makes you think that I have not learned to shade? I actually use shading all the time in my comic.

The reason why I used the word "tragic" is because AMD is marred by this debate.

AMD is only rising to and hasn't fallen from grace just yet. For now I say we save that term for things that truly deserve it; like the epic situation comedy "Married with Children".

Its just wrong for someone that scored four touchdowns in one game to spend the rest of his life selling shoes. =\

Yes, but you should note something. It is SHADED. Something you have not learned to do. It shows depth, which is much easier to do when drawing.

Just because Squidi doesn't shade, doesn't mean he doesn't know how. And I wouldn't use that sprite as a good example of shading, IMHO.

Now that the work-bashing has been taken care of, maybe we should go back to the subject at hand, lest this erupt into a flame-fest.

Fie on both of your houses. Photo comics are what it is...they're a lot more unique, and you can't beat the expressions of real people, especially when they're as handsome as me.

Heh, well, well, I still say they're the best.

This thread is still alive and on topic? Squidi must be getting pretty tired by now

Tired, yes. But if I'm going to impose my viewpoint on others by force, I have no time for sleep.

Once again, I must side with Squidi on the matter. I see people uploading 3D images on Renderosity ALL THE TIME using pre-fabricated models (by this, I mean they slap a texture on a naked poser figure and call it their own). I sort of see sprite comics in the same way. They're using a pre-fabricated model and calling it a "creation". Sometimes people actually think Spaztic Plastic is a modified poser model! That, to me, is totally offensive.
http://www.spazticplastic.com/birthofspaz.jpg[/img]
I'm sure squidi could show you a similiar production image, but his would be too prone to theft.
Every model, terrain, object, building and character in my comic started as a [i]polygonal cube. I create simple textures in PSP7 and often use a digital camera for a carpet or grass texture. In the same respect, I'm sure Squidi would be offended if somebody told him he copied some old NES game.

And really, this is my personal view on sprite comics. If I were the creator of a sprite comic, I couldn't finish it and be proud of it... no matter how long it took me! What your mind puts down on a blank sheet of paper is yours. Maybe I'm just messed up though, I've got a quick story for you guys;

When I was a kid, everybody in my first grade class had to color the same page of a coloring book. However, I took a black marker and drew my own picture on a blank sheet of paper... then proceeded to color that instead. The teacher made me sit in the corner for not following directions O_O. Later, in computer class (We were learning the ever-important art of Kid Pix), I refused to use any pre-fabricated stamps. Once again, it's just the way that I am, and always will be. Now, I'll have no problem reading, and sometimes even enjoying certain "sprite comics"... but when they're actually worth reading, I see a potential that could, and should be spent creating a new and unique idea.

You can't blame Squidi for his hard feelings towards sprite comics. I've been on his forums, and seen the countless times people have taken his EXACT work, or modified it and called it their own. It happens, and it makes the original artist empty inside. People who arn't artists have trouble understanding this.

Just my two cents! Oh, and I do think this topic is worth arguing. --- peace, Dan

Yeah I don't like sprite comics particularly much, but I give credit where credit is due, and Squidi and Glasko obviously put more work into their comics than the standard punk megaman spritey

Yeah I don't like sprite comics particularly much, but I give credit where credit is due, and Squidi and Glasko obviously put more work into their comics than the standard punk megaman spritey

Indeed, look at those ridiculous "2600 Theater" comics I've plastered all over this thread. Each of those comics took me less than five minutes to do. Most sprite comics on the net are as simple as that.

I thought you were starting up a new comic!

I thought you were starting up a new comic!

Nope, just a very limited joke.

I found them entertaining ;). I'd like to see a "TWC-Smiley Theater". Starring;

:alien:, :O_o:, and :jester:

If someone does that, it's all your fault.

Well, I've figured out why Pac-Man is not a good edition to a sprite comic. I discovered this by using him, then abandoning him in the same comic... He's OK for a quick, one time gag of sorts... But he's not someone to keep around.

Just because you thought noone had done it before. (http://fivecomix.keenspace.com/atari/atari03.htm)

Ive gotta agree with anyone who says that sprite comics blow. Some may be funny yes, but if you've spent long enough to amke some little sprite tit funny, you;ve obviously got the talent to make sommit descent. (Hint hint i mean schmoo) (http://www.drunkduck.com/Jeoff_and_Mike)

Just because you thought noone had done it before.

I remember going to that site a little while ago (found it on Onlinecomics, methinks) and don't remember seeing that comic. It's also the newest one there, on top of that I've done 8 strips to his 5. So as far as we know, I was FIRST! HA HA HA! ALL HAIL ME! USA #1!

Seriously speaking though, this just showcases the whole originality problem that sprite comics have. I'll spell it out: Over 3 billion Mega Man comics, a few million Sonic ones, a coupla hundred thousand Final Fantasy jobs, and two 2600 sprite comics -- one which was intended as a weak joke on a forum and fell flat on its face and died the horrible death it so deserved. With that in mind ...

Public Service Announcement!!

Systems with games that have sprites that havn't been used to DEATH - be the first kid on your block (or Angelfire or Geocities) to claim I WAS HERE FIRST with what's left over!

Intellivision! Burgertime[1], people!
Colecovision! SMURFS! And not the nasty TCP/IP kind!
Oddysey^2! If you squint REALLY hard, that jumble of pixels really does look like Popeye
Emerson Arcadia 2001 Errr....
Turbografx-16 BRAVO! And think of all the fun you can have with that Mega-Man knock-off ShubibubibuboobinabububibuboobubFUCKIT
Vectrex! ...YES! ...no.

And of course, the Arcade. If you do F4 in that Sailor Moon quiz game (using Mame) it basically hands you the entire "sprite sheet"[2] (thats what they like to call them) with a gajillion cute poses and whatnot. Plus it's Sailor Moon! Have your guestbook overflow with messages from airheaded 13-year old girls and "XD XD XD XD XD"[3].



Footnotes:

1. We are now closed! If you get that reference, then you're too old to be reading this.

2. Be sure to post the entire "sprite sheet" up on your website. Then demand recognition and "credit" in case anyone wants to use said "sprite sheet". Tear up your room and leave angry emoticons in the guestbooks of anyone who does not comply.

3. Either that, or have your guestbook filled up with messages from creepy 28 year-old guys. With plenty of "XD XD XD XD XD".


And finally, this post is another light-hearted joke. Breathe easy now.

Edit: Schmoo, I took a look at your new comic. I'm impressed! Reminds me of the classic comic "Lenore". Keep up the good work.

Yup, gotta agree. "Totem" sure has a Dirge-esk quality to it. Can't wait to see more :)

But I have to agree that anyone claiming originality on sprite comics is kidding themselves. Just today I saw someone blatantly lie that they hadn't used a Bass "backbone" on a comic they did when it was obvious they did. Same organization on the sprite sheet and everything. If you use it, even as a "backbone" like I do, you don't deny it. That's silly and self-delusional. While it's easy and somewhat true to feel a connection to the sprites you edit, as they have a certain design quality that you personally put into it, that's still no reason to forget where it came from.

Again, though, why does using sprites to convey your thoughts and ideas make for such heated debate? I know Squidi's side of stealing art, but that doesn't seem to be the prevailing opinion. Just that it's "lazy" or "unoriginal". Personally, I don't give a frelling bit one way or the other.

I've been reading ALOT of webcomics lately and come to a very simple conclusion. If I'm entertained, then the comic has served its purpose. Why do we, as a community, try to belittle that? To make 'our' own work seem "superior"? To validify 'our' feelings of frustration when we sometimes see these other comics become more popular than 'ours'? Because 'they' suck and put 'us' down?

Or is it just the inherent need for the internet to breed this bickering sense of rivaling opinions and the search for validification through the agreeance of others?

*sigh* Rant over, I guess...

Ethane: I've really enjoyed 2600 Theater, parody or not. As long as you bring that sense of humor and timing to another project, I'll read it. Now, 11.975 MHz, on the other hand, is completely over my head...

Indeed, look at those ridiculous "2600 Theater" comics I've plastered all over this thread. Each of those comics took me less than five minutes to do. Most sprite comics on the net are as simple as that.

Well mine takes me about an hour and a half an episode, if not more.
And then the design, the editing, the editing done by the editor (who told me that a sept 11 parody no matter how funny and off topic was going to get me lynched so the idea never got on the web) which makes me go and redo the whole damn thing and rewrite the 20 episodes that came immediately after that incedent. The fact that it takes up about 5 MB of disk space till I transform it to JPEG format. And then the deleting process on the computer, and the disk defragmentations I always have to run to keep my computer from crashing.
Translation: Not all sprite comics are done easily if they do what i do.

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater9.png

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater10.png

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater11.png

Ethane, you are my god-like figure. You should like totally make that 2600 theater a comic and you'll make teh big buckaroonies! LOLOLOLOLOLim sorry.

KC, just part of my bid to be KING OF THE SPRITES!

Yes, Sir!

ok, I just read 9 fsking pages of this thread, because I don't believe in responding to a thread w/o reading the whole thing. If I didn't I might wind up repeating what others have already said, and help keep this thread alive way longer than it should be.

Anywho, my vote goes to the anti-plagiarists. I'm with Squid, and Ethane.(by the way guys, both your comix rule, and I read them regularly).

I wish I could add to what they have to say, but just read their threads, and that's my opinion on the matter... also read the Creative Process (http://www.cryostorm.com/EYE_main.htm) comic on our site that's currently up.(it's november 18 when this is posted btw) Funny that's it's on just this subject. heh.

http://www.cryostorm.com/CP_NOW.JPG



Oh and those 2600 comics are the only worthwhile read on this thread.

Oh and we draw our comics at Cryostorm (http://www.cryostorm.com). For better or for worse, we hand draw our stuff, even if we're still in need of growth as artists.

To be honest, the sprite comic phenomena makes me see what the film industry would be like if half of the new generation of filmmakers ripped off WHAT'S UP TIGER LILY?

ok, I just read 9 fsking pages of this thread, because I don't believe in responding to a thread w/o reading the whole thing. If I didn't I might wind up repeating what others have already said, and help keep this thread alive way longer than it should be.

Anywho, my vote goes to the anti-plageurists. I'm with Squid, and Ethane.(by the way guys, both your comix rule, and I read them regularly).

I wish I could add to what they have to say, but just read their threads, and that's my opinion on the matter... also read the Creative Process (http://www.cryostorm.com/EYE_main.htm) comic on our site that's currently up.(it's november 18 when this is posted btw) Funny that's it's on just this subject. heh.

Oh and those 2600 comics are the only worthwhile read on this thread.

Oh and we draw our comics at Cryostorm (http://www.cryostorm.com). For better or for worse, we hand draw our stuff, even if we're still in need of growth as artists.
True, but I ---- at drawing and personally I believe that if you want to do something, do it good and make it look good. And I cant even draw stick figures without -------- up. Maybe you believe otherwise but this how I look at it.

*realization*

Why are people who can't draw making comics anyway? It is, as everyone knows, a visual medium.

YOU DAMN CRAZY FOOLS!

*realization*

Why are people who can't draw making comics anyway? It is, as everyone knows, a visual medium.

YOU DAMN CRAZY FOOLS!

You are wrong. In Viar 120 Ull college I had to sit here and have it driven into my skull this one stupid fact.

"If the artist says it is art then it is art, regardless of anything"

One guy in 1920 sold the reverse side of a toilet seat as art and it was displayed as art because the art community HAD to accept it.

So anything is art so long as the person who made it says that it is.
To defy that shows that you have never attended even one art class.

http://www.succubi.org/db/2600theater12.png

To define art would be impossible, all you can do is give the definition you accept.

Comics are a symbiotic relationship, the art is just as important as the writing. You cannot say that, even though sprite comic X has MSPaint backgrounds and blurry sprites, but is well-written, it is a very good comic.

And then there is the fact that you are stealing. I never said sprites aren't art, I'm just saying they are not your art.

To define art would be impossible, all you can do is give the definition you accept.

Comics are a symbiotic relationship, the art is just as important as the writing. You cannot say that, even though sprite comic X has MSPaint backgrounds and blurry sprites, but is well-written, it is a very good comic.

And then there is the fact that you are stealing. I never said sprites aren't art, I'm just saying they are not your art.

True enough I did not make the sprites. But the guy who drew a mustache on the mona lisa didnt draw her either and it had to be accepted as his art cause it was his idea of making fun of Leonardo da Vinchi. So even though it was not HIS art...it was.

Comics are a symbiotic relationship, the art is just as important as the writing. You cannot say that, even though sprite comic X has MSPaint backgrounds and blurry sprites, but is well-written, it is a very good comic.

They said the same thing to piccaso and the impressionists. "This is not art cause it does not look good".

As we all know Picasso won that argument.

To define art would be impossible, all you can do is give the definition you accept.

You are quite right with this statement. But since it agrees with me anyways what does it matter? The only person who can define art is no one. So who but the author has a right to contradict him? No one, not even you.

They said the same thing to piccaso and the impressionists. "This is not art cause it does not look good".

As we all know Picasso won that argument.
That is an entriely different situation. I did not say "this is not art 'cause it does not look good", I said that the art and writing are just as important as each other, in comics at least.

Pablo Picasso drew everything on his own. I've seen a lot of his work, it's very interesting and creative.

Personally I'd like to see somebody create a sprite comic from a rare and unusual variety of games (A few comics do this). Then, I'd like to see them give credance to the author right below the comic.

You cannot say that, even though sprite comic X has MSPaint backgrounds and blurry sprites, but is well-written, it is a very good comic.
That is an entriely different situation. I did not say "this is not art 'cause it does not look good", I said that the art and writing are just as important as each other, in comics at least.
Harlem then. In Harlem the painting looks like piccaso. But every single one had a story to it like a comic. They too were proven right when others told them it wasnt art.

Sprite comics are art. They just happen to be art that is beating a single joke into the ground.

"Look! Nintendo characters are acting all zany and stuff!"

In webcomics you get one person who has a novel idea and 50 gazillion people who rip it off.

Just like TV.

Despite that, Steve, I'll bet you that sometime next week someone will show up with ANOTHER Mega Man sprite comic. All the other sprite comics, ok, but why is everyone so fixated on Mega Man?

So at least we agree that sprite comics are art now.

As for the other thing you are right.

By the way my sprite comic is about ff4. Yeah another d--- ff sprite comic.

Because if you look at Megaman at a certain angle, he looks like a nude Sarah Michelle-Gellar.

*tilts head in just the right way*

SWEET JESUS!!!!!!!!! IT DOES LOOK LIKE A NUDE SARAH MICHELLE GELLAR!!!!

Because if you look at Megaman at a certain angle, he looks like a nude Sarah Michelle-Gellar.


Oh, bullshit.

That's the dumbest thing I've ev.....

Well holee shit. That really DOES look like a nude Sarah Michelle-Gellar!

You owe me.

Because if you look at Megaman at a certain angle, he looks like a nude Sarah Michelle-Gellar.

Hmmm...now that is intresting.

Judging by the momentum of the debate at this point... I think(Hope) that the thread's about dead...

Not yet, I still have a ton of that 2600 Theater crap to spam here.

hooray

Judging by the momentum of the debate at this point... I think(Hope) that the thread's about dead...
maybe not the thread but the debate seems to be over.

Not yet, I still have a ton of that 2600 Theater crap to spam here.

Then get to the spamming, man! The spamming shall continue until morale increases!

Then get to the spamming, man! The spamming shall continue until morale increases!
"The beatings will continue until the morale has improved."

Well, I do not really see how you would not consider a sprite comic to not actually be real art. They were created at one time. They actually were created the same way as the pixel art comics were.

This is true even though it might be difficult to see. There have been incessant instances of these comics who use these characters, although they were created the same way as the supposed pixel art comics were. So, you can say that they are similar. If you do not consider sprite comics to have art, then you also consider pixel art to be the same. They were created the same way. I do not really see how these pixel art comics are not really sprite comics. Again, if you want me to elucidate on this, I can.

Also, to make this more convincing, I do create my own art. But, I still consider my comic to be a sprite comic. I can also explain this if necessary. So, I do not really see how you believe sprite comics to not be art when it is then.

Not yet, I still have a ton of that 2600 Theater crap to spam here.Hooked, are you?

Hooked, are you?

I'll tell you what, it's a great way to vent especially when your main comic is mostly in French and Chinese.

What's crazy is the fact that people who normally hate sprite comics tell me that mine's funny and that they'd keep reading it. On top of that, I figured my antics of spamming this thread with it would have eventually had a mod set me straight. So far no one's complained and just about everyone seems to like it.

I've been tempted to set up a page and erraticaly update it. Hell, I honestly spend no more than five to ten minutes on each one.

Lord, I feel like such a hypocrite.

Lord, I feel like such a hypocrite.

Then, smile, and make more of them! There's nuttin' wrong with a good ol' sprite comic as long as it can make me laugh.

The odd thing is... Normally when a sprite comic only takes, like, 10 minutes, it's obvious & annoying... But I'd link to that one. It's still obvious that it's only about 10 minutes, but... I don't know...

Ethane, it's a parody sprite comic. You chose 4bit sprites, for God's sake! And straight up black backgrounds, I think as a whole you're poking fun at the sprite comic world.

Ethane, it's a parody sprite comic. You chose 4bit sprites, for God's sake! And straight up black backgrounds, I think as a whole you're poking fun at the sprite comic world.

Actually, (Pedantic Ethane time) they are technically 8-bit sprites. The 2600 used a customised 6502, as did the C64, the 5200, the 7800, the NES and even the Turbografx 16 -- in a dual configuration, (and even being 8-bit) it pumped out twice as many instruction as the Genesis' 68000. Quite a CPU.

But hey, thanks for the compliments and I'm glad you like it. Also, my UNDYING GUARANTEE that I will never use Mega Man sprites! Unless someone paypals me 5 bucks. For 10 bucks, I'll end the strip with Mega Man saying "I hate you."

Also, my UNDYING GUARANTEE that I will never use Mega Man sprites! Unless someone paypals me 5 bucks. For 10 bucks, I'll end the strip with Mega Man saying "I hate you."

Throw in a penis joke and I'll give you $15.

Remember the obligatory "this comic sucks". And profanity.

I still stick by the opinion that they wouldn't have such a bad rap if so many of them were simply better. And not cookie cutted in a near identical way.

Dang it, I had something to say. Ah well.

Remember kids ! It's not because it seems easy that you should do it ! Just like inhaling vinager !

Don't forget about colors when it comes to sprites, themselves (or any digital art):

2 colors: 1bit
4 colors: 2bit
6 colors: 3bit
8 colors: 4bit

And it goes on and on and on. x_X;

Ummm.... Actually...

If you're gonna be literal:

1 color - 1 bit
3 colors - 2 bit
There is no 3 bit (must be a power of 2... you gotta round up)
7 colors - 4 bit
15 colors - 8 bit
(You forgot to subtract 1 for transparency)

Secondly, when talking about the bittage of sprites, people mean the bittage of the system that the sprite came from, or the system it's equivalent to. So, 3 color Mario from Super Mario Bros. 3 is 2 bits, but he's an 8-Bit sprite.

I don't think anyone is that literal, nor can I see the audience counting colors in order to verify the authenticity of the sprite's "bittage".
Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that sprites from NES games could have a color value as high as five. I think oldschool Megaman's color depth have five.

Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that sprites from NES games could have a color value as high as five. I think oldschool Megaman's color depth have five.

On the NES, a sprite and a background tile had the same amount of colours available to it, which was just 4. However, the sprite had to have one colour set to transparent, so sprites only had 3 visible colours. Now, you could stack a sprite on top of the other to give the illusion of six colours, but this was rarely (if ever) used because because the NES could handle only 8 sprites at a time on a scanline.

As for the impressive graphics in the Megaman games, that's just Capcom being their usual bad selves. They stuck with the MMC3 mapper for all of the Mega Man games, which really doesn't allow for any colour tricks (something the MMC5, the VRC6 and that Sunsoft mapper did, and even those were limited.)

Damn sprites... I'd like to see people make some more 3D Sprite comics (http://www.sephiroth3d.com/comic/index.php). At least they don't all look like Megaman characters...

And why don't more people make good 3D comics like mine? All everyone seems to use is Poser, or they simply suck at writing... And a lot of times: Both.

I'M TRYING TO RAISE THE BAR HERE!!! stupid wannabes...

Damn sprites... I'd like to see people make some more 3D Sprite comics (http://www.sephiroth3d.com/comic/index.php). At least they don't all look like Megaman characters...

Kaijin (http://www.drunkduck.com/Kaijin) - A Legacy of Kain sprite comic.

You may all now shoot me.

Damn sprites... I'd like to see people make some more 3D Sprite comics. At least they don't all look like Megaman characters...

And why don't more people make good 3D comics like mine? All everyone seems to use is Poser, or they simply suck at writing... And a lot of times: Both.

I'M TRYING TO RAISE THE BAR HERE!!! stupid wannabes...

Ah cool you're the owner of Sara and David, Litazia sent me a link to your site. I certainly don't use poser, and I like my writing ;). Nor do I give a rats ass when people dislike it. Hell, I figure you should write what you like and then eventually, people who share your style will come along. I actually use Wings3D, and my characters arn't rigged... I'm working on that. You seem to have an excellent grip on cel-shaded graphics in Lightwave, it's impressive!

edit: Btw... I don't really know of other 3D comics, could you link me some if you do?

Ummm.... Actually...

If you're gonna be literal:

1 color - 1 bit
3 colors - 2 bit
There is no 3 bit (must be a power of 2... you gotta round up)
7 colors - 4 bit
15 colors - 8 bit
(You forgot to subtract 1 for transparency)

Secondly, when talking about the bittage of sprites, people mean the bittage of the system that the sprite came from, or the system it's equivalent to. So, 3 color Mario from Super Mario Bros. 3 is 2 bits, but he's an 8-Bit sprite.I'll actually have a friendly argument here with you. The transparency actually does count, because it's part of the color information for a sprite or some pixel art. Go around Pixelation (http://www.mindcrank.com/forums) or the Sprite Domain (http://www.spritedomain.net) for some more details on that.

Okay, I'm done now. Back to doing.. Something? I dunno.

Ah cool you're the owner of Sara and David, Litazia sent me a link to your site. I certainly don't use poser, and I like my writing ;). Nor do I give a rats ass when people dislike it. Hell, I figure you should write what you like and then eventually, people who share you're style will come along. I actually use Wings3D, and my character arn't rigged... I'm working on that. You seem to have an excellent grip on cel-shaded graphics in Lightwave, it's impressive!

edit: Btw... I don't really know of other 3D comics, could you link me some if you do?
Hmm... I'll have to check out your comic when my Inet comes back. (It was SUPPOSE to be back today by 8PM, but it has yet to appear... I'm using my main phoneline right now. Kind of a no-no.)

Most of the S&D cast aren't rigged (IK or otherwise) either. I'm starting to try and get a lot of them rigged so it'll save me a lot of scene setup time, but I've found that sometimes the rigs don't work. So I've been looking for good tutorials I can easily adapt for their bone system... Or I just need to get the basics done with the IK I have, turn it off, and tweak from there... ;) I've heard a lot about Wings3D... I need to take a look at that...

And I totally agree with you about stories. If you, the author, can't enjoy the story, it's not worth doing.

Other good 3D Webcomic: Rare... There's a lot of online comic books, such as Liberty, but most of the 3D webcomics tend to suck in the ways I mentioned in my last post. Stew & Beef is a Poser comic, but I don't know the link anymore... Same's true with Neko Time. (Which I think changed it's name since I last saw it...) Dragon Tails (http://www.dragon-tails.com/) is one of the "better" ones... I still don't really like it. The other "good" one is Syntac Errors (http://www.syntaxerrorscomics.com/) which I've only recently become aware of, and have since ripped it apart. (as see in this thread (http://www.sara-and-david.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=230).) I don't really know of any other good 3D comics... The only other one I can think of off hand hasn't been updated is almost a year. FF7Theater (http://www.sephiroth3d.com/comic.php).

On the NES, a sprite and a background tile had the same amount of colours available to it, which was just 4. However, the sprite had to have one colour set to transparent, so sprites only had 3 visible colours. Now, you could stack a sprite on top of the other to give the illusion of six colours, but this was rarely (if ever) used because because the NES could handle only 8 sprites at a time on a scanline.
Late comment: I think Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA, one of my all-time favorite games) used that trick, because there are at least four colors visible on Mario: Clothing Red, Overalls Blue, Pasty Skin Flesh-Tone, and Eyeball White. So that's five colors counting the transparent. Mario's eyeballs had a tendency to flicker, so that might support the overlapping sprites theory.

Shamefully, you'd think I'd know more about this stuff, but I'm pretty clueless. I just studied a bunch of 8-bit games before starting my strip, and kinda suspected I was cheating with my 4-color sprites, but finally said screw it. Blame it on Mario. :jester:

Ok...on one hand, I am thrilled that restrictions have been placed upon this deathly idiotic argument. I'm glad that all agruments on the matter will be in one lovely, cute little topic of evil, and it will protect us all from it's stupifying splendor.

On the other hand, I am pissed that this matter is even a question at all. It's been going on for months on top of months, with no ground ever gained, because, ho hum, it's fucking retarded. The argument on both sides is based on opinion and isolated examples, and NO information or sources, because that would be impossible to do. There are only a few things you can get from this debate and accept as true:

1. Drawing takes more time, with general drawing, coloring, shadowing, whatever. Sprites(and I will *always* call them sprites because I detest the pointless euphemism "pixel art") take less time to do. That's the closest to a fact that you can get, on this matter anyway.

2. A well-presented, interesting comic is good, regardless of the format in which it is done.

3. Some sprite comics blow infinitley. So do some drawn comics. To summarize: quite a few webcomics are horrible. Deal with it.

4. The average web comic reading populous will not give a damn.

1. Drawing takes more time, with general drawing, coloring, shadowing, whatever. Sprites(and I will *always* call them sprites because I detest the pointless euphemism "pixel art") take less time to do. That's the closest to a fact that you can get, on this matter anyway.
Just to be argumentative: As a generality that's probably true, but my best drawings took a few hours, while my best strips have taken a few days. Of course, because I'm throwing animation into the deal, that accounts for the time consumption.

But I don't believe the amount of time put into something equals the level of quality, so it's a moot point anyway. Heck, I've been putting more time into my strips lately, and I'm not convinced they're getting any better...

There are two very basic reasons why I sneer at them.

1) It's a gimmick. Some guy does a comic with video game sprites or ones that he made on his own, and suddenly everyone's doing it. It can be cute, but there are other ways to be artistic in the digital age than making a comic that looks like a Nintendo game.

2) The joke's over. The whole Megaman-said-"shit" thing isn't funny anymore. As a reader, I beg people to try something new.

Aside from that, I don't care about legality, the amount of time it takes to make them, or any of the usual gripes. I even read at least one regularly. I just want something new.

There is something to be said about effort. Effort doesn't have to mean the author has to put a lot of time into it, just as long as the author tried to the best of his or her ability.

1. Drawing takes more time, with general drawing, coloring, shadowing, whatever. Sprites(and I will *always* call them sprites because I detest the pointless euphemism "pixel art") take less time to do.

That's not true - or at least, not always true. For me, drawing takes FAR less time than doing pixel art. In fact, for most backgrounds, I generally draw about 3 or 4 versions of it on paper before sitting down for the lengthy pixelling process. Getting things lined up correctly can take hours, if not days.

It depends on the artist, really, but I would honestly be surprised if you could find someone that worked faster in pixels than drawing. Pixel art is not easy to do well. I think you are confusing the way you think it looks with the way it really is.

Also, go ahead and call them sprites, but do you call backgrounds sprites too? Pixel art is not just used for 32x32 characters, you know.

What he should have said, perhaps, was that it take far less time to assemble a comic if you've got a large portion of the images (mostly the characters) already finished.
I'm not one to make characters that specifically look like game characters, but I do know what it's like to draw a character using computer graphics. It doesn't seem to take more or less time than usual, aside from elimination of having to scan and clean up line art.
But that's beside the point. I believe he was trying to make a case for the amount of time spent on each individual episode of a comic being somehow relative to the amount of effort, which it has nothing to do with.

I'm surprised that the sprite side of this poll isn't being flooded by new generations of sprite comic artists. Is the cesspool part of the genre draining out now? Will there only be the dedicated few left to carry the torch?

God, I hope so.