How did the big guys promote themselves when they where small fry?

Lately I have been doing some research lately out of curosity and I wondered how did the comercially successful webcomics like Sluggy Freelance. Megatokyo or PA started promoting their comic during the time they were virtually unknown. Did they pay big bucks and put ads up in big Anime sites, did guest comics or promoted their comics in the forums?

What do you thing are the things, beside making great art and interesting writing that initially attracted people to these sites?! I mean, even you do have a good comic you still need to attract people to come to your site right? And what would be a better way to study webcomic Marketing as observing what the big boys did?

Any old hand here who seen these big comics during their infant years to enlighten us?!!



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Interestingly (and shockingly) enough I stumbled unto the http://www.go-gaia.com/ forums and discovered that Piro used to spam a lot in Anime forums to promote his site and comics!!! Here is the link:

http://ian.go-gaia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=235720&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Look for the post of Daftpunk. I'm not passing judgment or anything (I love Megatokyo and visit the site every update days) but if spamming does get attention and draws people to your page and webcomic, depite of the flames it generates - don't you think spamming does work? (or maybe at least before when spamming was not really considered that evil)

If I remember correctly, PA started as part of LoonyGames - an online web magazine dedicated to gaming. According to their site recently, after that, they moved on to Old Man Murray (I'm not familiar with it). I do remember that they were also featured on Daily Radar, an old gaming website that was the successor to NextGen magazine. At that time, they also had their own website, but that was back when the art was crappy and there wasn't a blog or anything. I noticed that PA is also featured in one of the computer gaming mags (not Computer Games, the other one).

Sluggy, I never heard of until it was linked to by GameFAQs when the server was being upgraded. It was about 2 or 3 years old at the time and was not nearly as popular as it is now. There was some sort of list, like the Top 100 cool webpages or something, that Sluggy dominated. It was in first for over a year. It wasn't just webcomics but also businesses and stuff.

MegaTokyo - have no idea.

MT got plugged by PA a lot, I think, back when gamer comics were a new thing. 'cos MT was a gamer comic in the early days...
And spamming forums is fine, I think. :) As is sneaking around on forums with anot-so-subtle signature. It's when people come in, post about their comic, and then piss off, come back, do it again, etc, that it gets wearing. Nothing worse than somone that only replies to threads they've started. Damn leeches! XD

Oh, and the whole MT, PA, PVP, Sluggy, 8-Bit theatre etc phenomenon was a case of right place right time, imo. When they started there was a hell of a lot less competition. They were quality comics in a field of people that at the time, weren't up to the same standard. I reckon you take any comic in the top 20 in any of our lists, take it back a few years, and release it, it'll do pretty much the same thing. The thing is, if you ask if they deserve to be there just because of that; then hell yeah! They went out and made webcomics probably before most of us knew they existed, or had even considered the idea. They were pioneers, they speculated, they won. :) That's what I think, anyway.

back in the day there were few comics, easy to stand out and promote (theoretically)

I didn't steal Threeboy's point! Honest! He snuck in while I was editing! XD

Daftpunk's comment reminds me of an old quote. "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

Wow that was a mouthful guys! Special thanks to Squidi and Chikin for the history lesson! I also did remember that Exploitation Now also constantly linked with Megatokyo as I remembered so they pretty much shared readers and we all know how popular they became.

Oh, and the whole MT, PA, PVP, Sluggy, 8-Bit theatre etc phenomenon was a case of right place right time, imo. When they started there was a hell of a lot less competition. They were quality comics in a field of people that at the time, weren't up to the same standard. I reckon you take any comic in the top 20 in any of our lists, take it back a few years, and release it, it'll do pretty much the same thing. The thing is, if you ask if they deserve to be there just because of that; then hell yeah! They went out and made webcomics probably before most of us knew they existed, or had even considered the idea. They were pioneers, they speculated, they won. :) That's what I think, anyway.

I'm not saying they don't deserve it, of course they did! Partly I think they were lucky because of their timing but the quality is present and we all agree that made them endure. I don't know about 8Bit Theater but I still think that PA and Sluggy are still going on very strong.

MT in my opinion is doing okay I guess but I seem to be getting confused with all the unresolved/confusing plot branches Fred is taking his stories and characters? On top of that, I'm starting to miss Largo's humor which in my opinion half of the soul of Megatokyo. Also, why are there so many MT haters?!! I mean I visit huge forums like PVP and Go-Giea and somehow a flame fest always erupts everytime somebody raves/rants about Megatokyo!?

As for Piro's spamming. I really don't know if it was true but I guess it worked for Fred. Hehe imagine him doing it here now in the TWC site :)

Many of the "big" webcomics, as mentioned before, were supported by commercial entities like gamer sites, or were plugged by already-popular comics. I have heard that MacHall was plugged by Megatokyo a few times and that was really their big launch. Not that these guys just got lucky or anything, they're good at what they do. PA's art was pretty crappy at first, but it was clever and timely and updated on time. A lot of comics get the lucky plug and then "lose" it because they update sporadically or the comic itself isn't very good.

I would say that Fred printing Megatokyo books is a form of promotion. He's branching into a new medium and picking up new readers. I'm pretty sure PA made a book, but their comic isn't really conducive to that format.

As for MT-haters- I have no idea. Maybe they think they're doing other webcomic authors a favor, maybe they don't like the art and comic style, maybe they're just jealous. :D I agree that MT is kind of losing it... Fred's rants say he's getting the plot on track, but I don't see it.

Back in the anciant year or 1995 AD, webcomics had to give what is commonly refered to as, head, they would pack signs, and goto loser meetings, or conventions as there known today, give speechs, and make with the 'head'.

When I first got hooked up to the net in 1999 (a latecomer, yes) I used to lurk at the rec.arts.comics.strips Usenet newsgroup. A lot of the earliest comics that I can remember were talked about, critiqued, and promoted there.

MT's plots are actually really cool, I think. But he has about 5 all going on at the same time, often on the same pages, and it gets frekken confusing. XD It'll work a lot better as a printed book, I think, which is probably what he's aiming for. But yeah, there's loads of stuff going on in MT. Maybe Piro's being a bit too subtle with most of it, (whenever I go "huh?" I always check the forums, become enlightened by a small piece of trivia from 3 months ago, and carry on..XD) but yeah, I think the story parts are pretty strong in MT. :) It's just hard to keep track of them 'cos of the speed of the updates (3 per week isn't enough when you have that many story threads running at the same time) and the medium of webcomics, when we can't easily flip back a few pages to refresh our memory. :/ But yeah, I'm definitely getting the book. :D

A lot of comics get the lucky plug and then "lose" it because they update sporadically or the comic itself isn't very good.




Hehe, reminds me of that comic, UnderPower . Interesting and well drawn comic but the artist seem to be updating like twice every crop cycle. I remember it got plugged quite a few times by Megatokyo which gave it a huge influx of readers. Now its just sitting on the fringe of the webcomics world.

I would say that Fred printing Megatokyo books is a form of promotion. He's branching into a new medium and picking up new readers. I'm pretty sure PA made a book, but their comic isn't really conducive to that format.

Yeah the books seem to do wonders for MT. I noticed a quite a good number of new forums goes in MT seem to have discovered Megatokyo from the book.

I agree that MT is kind of losing it... Fred's rants say he's getting the plot on track, but I don't see it.

Hmm interesting, a few people from the PVP forums did say that Fred might have been having problems in his writing. Maybe he added too many arcs and branches now he has problem resolving them all.

I thought that the Megatokyo story was already all written and thought out? I remember Fred mentioning that that in a con interview trancript posted online quite a few months ago.


As for MT-haters- I have no idea. Maybe they think they're doing other webcomic authors a favor, maybe they don't like the art and comic style, maybe they're just jealous. :D

Here is my theory. It's partly jealousy and partly unrequited love :jester: (no really)

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Jealousy because a lot of webcomic artist feel that Fred does not deserve the popularity MT is enjoying right now. I do understand to a degree as there are tons equality high quality comics out there that does not get the exposure that MT does.

But you have to understand that maybe Fred really worked hard in marketing his comic. He attended cons, promoted in forums, paid big bucks in advertisment (I saw his banner once in Source Forge!). Also as mentioned he probably worked hard link exchanges and getting plugs in much more popular comics like PA.
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"He lives off his comic but barely can update 3 times a freaking day?!!" quoted from the general population of MT haters. Now this I can understand but that is what the market wants. If his readers do not care waiting for 2 weeks to get their MT update fix that is their prerogative. If they buy MT goods and send money to Freds way, that the fan's choice.

As I have said, the market will decide. Why get your panties all wet over it, its really not worth it, there are other webcomics out there to enjoy stop obsessing over this one!
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As for unrequited love. I dunno. Maybe because its manga??? :jester: . Or maybe many of them are actually otaku at heart, wanting MT to be funnier, more interesting and clever than it actually is? I mean a lot of these haters bash MT regulary yet visit the site every update day! Talk about a bunch of mashochists. :classic:

They were almost all link buddies to one another in the beginning. That helped a lot back when webcomics were a novel thing.
As for 8 bit theater. He probably got popular so fast because he was one of the first, if not the first sprite comic. And it was actually an original idea at the time.

MT's plots are actually really cool,

I never thought I'd hear such a noobish thing from you.

When I first got hooked up to the net in 1999 (a latecomer, yes) I used to lurk at the rec.arts.comics.strips Usenet newsgroup. A lot of the earliest comics that I can remember were talked about, critiqued, and promoted there.

Do they have like really old archives of it? I goggled and visited the links and it and for most part, its like a ghost town now...

I think the story parts are pretty strong in MT. It's just hard to keep track of them 'cos of the speed of the updates (3 per week isn't enough when you have that many story threads running at the same time) and the medium of webcomics

I think the 5 story line thing is quite doable in a 3 times a week update format but the thing is, Fred has actually have to do it three times a week and not post that god awful ugly Dom days (I really really hate that guy!) or a Dead Piro half of the time.

I think the 5 story line thing is quite doable in a 3 times a week update format but the thing is, Fred has actually have to do it three times a week and not post that god awful ugly Dom days (I really really hate that guy!) or a Dead Piro half of the time.


As much as I enjoy MT, Fred's gonna steadily lose readers if he maintains a habit of that. "Shirt Guy Dom" is neither fun nor entertaining, and no one reads Megatokyo because of Fred's art.

Shirt Guy Dom - world's most hated stick figure

Ethane: THANK YOU. If people would stop coddling Piro maybe he'd get off his damn ass and UPDATE 3 TIMES A WEEK. It IS his job!

Ethane: THANK YOU. If people would stop coddling Piro maybe he'd get off his damn ass and UPDATE 3 TIMES A WEEK. It IS his job!

Don't worry, it won't last. By the time Piro figures out that no one cares about Shirt Guy Dom or Dead Piro Art, there will not be a few that surpassed him but many. All it takes is time.

think the 5 story line thing is quite doable in a 3 times a week update format but the thing is, Fred has actually have to do it three times a week and not post that god awful ugly Dom days (I really really hate that guy!) or a Dead Piro half of the time.

I don't read Megatokyo, but...
3 times a week amounts to roughly 13 pages per month. That is not nearly enough pages per month to handle 5 different storylines. Decent pacing is shot at that rate. If you're expecting to follow things along as they're updated. I'm guessing most fans read it as an archive comic though, so it doesn't really matter.

22 pages is the norm in monthly comic books, is it not? And even those tend to be rushed along as far as pacing is concerned.

He needs to learn how to draw faster. He only does pencils,the characters are very simple and the backgrounds are sketchy. He needs to be able to do that in less than 8 hours per page. I don't even know if I can believe it really takes him that long, but if it does, I won't harp on the guy. If it takes him that much to get the comic to look at it is, I'll just say to keep on going.

read today's mt, it's relevant to this dom hating

read today's mt, it's relevant to this dom hating

Hehe, good, at least I know I'm not the only one that hates that disgusting excuse for a filler.

Oh boy, they are going to Europe. I can hear the whining rumble of a chorus of MT haters echo in a dozen forums right now. :Popcorn: Honestly with all the bad publicity MT is getting right now, its best for Piro to simply not mention Europe at all and make those 4 pages (up to monday of course) and simply post them. Mentioning they are going to Europe will simply give the haters more fuel, "Bah! He can't even update 3 times a week and now he is using fan money to go to Europe Blah Blah!!???" I'm sure you guys can see the ugly possiblities.


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Rezo, I see what you mean. Come to think of it, 12 pages may not be enough for a story driven comics such as MT but realistically the author has already problems trying to keep up with 3 pages a week let alone 22 a month. So the most realistic expectation would be 3 pages a week.

Don't worry, it won't last. By the time Piro figures out that no one cares about Shirt Guy Dom or Dead Piro Art, there will not be a few that surpassed him but many. All it takes is time.


Hmmm not likely if his fans cuddle him up up like this:

http://forums.megatokyo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB8&Number=1543379&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

Quite scary really and I quote:

"There's a fine line inbetween pleasure and pain. We, the fans and believers of MT, are akin to Masochists. Piro (and Dom) are akin to Sadists. We want the pain that SGD strips bring becasue its pleasureable to us"

I really love the comic but sometime I wonder why do their forums attract these kinds of creepy people...

I really love the comic but sometime I wonder why do their forums attract these kinds of creepy people...

I was simply amazed when I first looked into that forum and saw all the activity and users. All I had to do was read a few of the threads to see all the sad there. You know, I like to read his comic too, but damn. It's just a comic.

As for the whole Europe affair, I think that's great for him. I can only hope that my comic gets so much attention that I get carted over the globe to talk about it. However, posting a comic about that and taking another vacation from the strip altogether is going to annoy his readership, the majority of which don't care about the forums, "dead piro days", dom, or whatever the crew cares to bitch about below the comic.

If Fred were smart, he'd recruit talented people to do his "shirt guy dom" days, and relieve dom of that indignity forever. Rather than having his weird friend whip up unfunny crap every two weeks on short notice, he could say, "hey, you talented person I know, want to to a pinup or guest comic for me that I can hold onto and use when I need? Free advertising from my googol insane devoted readers! And no more annoying torture for my fans that drive away readers like skoolmunkee!"

Is MegaTokyo the artist's primary/sole income source?

Is MegaTokyo the artist's primary/sole income source?

Pretty much. From the ads on his site, to books, and posters.

He needs to learn how to draw faster. He only does pencils,the characters are very simple and the backgrounds are sketchy. He needs to be able to do that in less than 8 hours per page. I don't even know if I can believe it really takes him that long, but if it does, I won't harp on the guy. If it takes him that much to get the comic to look at it is, I'll just say to keep on going.
Yea. I heard about a lecture given by an HONEST TO GOD MANGA-KA! (*swooon!* XD) (this is second hand info, translated through 3 languages, but y'know..).
Baron Yoshimoto claimed to put out 12 pages PER DAY. I mean, sure, it's traditional to use assistants, and the japanese work ethic can border on the obsessively crazy, but damn! Another thing is that this guy apparently practiced pen-strokes, over & over again, so that when he came to draw a line; *FWAP!* he's done it, and he can move onto the next one. None of this drawing, worrying, re-drawing, etc etc.. Apparently he filled up pages of lines and brushstrokes over & over until he could just reel them off when he needed to. I know I spend way too long rubbing out a line, redrawing it until it's right, and then meticulously inking it, then using the whiteout to trim it when I screw it up, etc... I dunno, reading about that guy really opened my eyes up to how much I could put out if I really got down to it. I honestly think if I was 100& efficient with my time, I could update 7 times a week while holding a day job. Doesn't leave much for a social life, but the time is there. But the fact is I'm just a lazy arse, so I only get about 3/4 done per week. Argh.

Hmmm, sorry, tangent. XD

If Fred were smart, he'd recruit talented people to do his "shirt guy dom" days, and relieve dom of that indignity forever. Rather than having his weird friend whip up unfunny crap every two weeks on short notice, he could say, "hey, you talented person I know, want to to a pinup or guest comic for me that I can hold onto and use when I need? Free advertising from my googol insane devoted readers! And no more annoying torture for my fans that drive away readers like skoolmunkee!"


The sad thing here is that, his diehard fans are actually BEGGING Fred to put up Dom days and Sad Piro days during his trip to Europe! (Visit the link in my post above.). I tell you, if Fred does not keep on his toes he will wake up one day stairing at the heels of a bunch of upcomming webartists who will overtake his comic. And rightfully so.


Yea. I heard about a lecture given by an HONEST TO GOD MANGA-KA! (*swooon!* XD) (this is second hand info, translated through 3 languages, but y'know..).
Baron Yoshimoto claimed to put out 12 pages PER DAY. I mean, sure, it's traditional to use assistants, and the japanese work ethic can border on the obsessively crazy, but damn! Another thing is that this guy apparently practiced pen-strokes, over & over again, so that when he came to draw a line; *FWAP!* he's done it, and he can move onto the next one. None of this drawing, worrying, re-drawing, etc etc.. Apparently he filled up pages of lines and brushstrokes over & over until he could just reel them off when he needed to. I know I spend way too long rubbing out a line, redrawing it until it's right, and then meticulously inking it, then using the whiteout to trim it when I screw it up, etc... I dunno, reading about that guy really opened my eyes up to how much I could put out if I really got down to it. I honestly think if I was 100& efficient with my time, I could update 7 times a week while holding a day job. Doesn't leave much for a social life, but the time is there. But the fact is I'm just a lazy arse, so I only get about 3/4 done per week. Argh.

Hmmm, sorry, tangent. XD

Wow interesting info. I read in a mag before (I think it was Manga Jin) about a Manga-Ka who worked alone but is able to dish out 5 to 7 pages a day! These Manga Ka are insane, with assistants or none. A far cry from the semi 3 pages a week of Megatokyo I'd say, even Sluggy freelance does not compaire since the daily updates are simply small 3 pannel strips.

It takes me roughly 45 minutes to 1½ hours to do a page now. That's writing(I do everything at once, no script), pencilling, and ink washing. When I first started out, It took me around 2½ to 4 hours per page. I know this because I'm weird about keeping track of my "comic stats" or what have you. I also average roughly ten panels per page and perhaps 9 dialogue balloons. -_o

But if I were to actually put in a 40 hour work week as I'd at least expect a pro to do out of obligation for having a standard work week, I'd be able to have perhaps 30 or so pages done weekly. If I were to take my available free time now, which amounts to 2 hours every night and 15 hours total from Fri-Sun, I'd be able to put out perhaps 16 pages per week. Instead of the 4 that I actually do. I'd still have time to foff about with friends and complete my assignments as well, though I only get 5 hours of sleep per day. As it is, I'm only working on the comic perhaps 5 hours every week, drawing ahead, and running clean up on the pages that I'm putting online currently. I spend a lot of time drawing, but its not for the comic.

Its interesting anyways, to think of how much we could get done if we actually spent a decent amount of time doing it.

Though its not as if they can all work like this. If you're working with high detail it simple can't be done quickly. No way around it. Masamune Shirow - with his detailed if very rough BGs - produced Appleseed #3 entirely on his own and it took him a year to make the 175 or so pages.
The fellow that draws Gon only puts out a story four times a year, because the art is so obsessively detailed that it can't be done any other way. I believe he spends more than a day on each page. It really depends on what you're going for, but speed is an issue at all times.